Yes, I ran boatloads of Chinese garbage from Shanghai to Long Beach. Prices were going up and down all the time, and then everything was getting shoved into warehouses, where stuff might sit for years. If the government increased the property tax on the warehouse, demanding that everything sell in 90 days, and additionally forced you to sign a 90 day price contract with hefty penalties for a price change… Well, there’d still be a market, but most of the capital would disappear overnight.
People already hesitate to put up orders in trade ‘hubs’ like Rens or Agil, because if it doesn’t sell you lose the broker fee, and so everything gets mashed into Jita. This change will just make trade even more of a hassle. You might want a spaceship, and someone else might want to produce one, but you will have a hell of a time agreeing on a price, because whoever places the market order will be taking extra risk.
The prices will just yo-yo from day to day.
Prices are basically a form of communication. One person suggests a price, and waits to see if anyone accepts it. Nobody knows at first exactly what a fair price is, and so you go up or down from there. What CCP is proposing amounts to a tax upon communication. People will be penalized for starting that initial conversation, and so you will have a market where there are buyers and sellers, but whoever speaks first is going to pay more.
Dear player.
Over the last 12 months the player base has dropped substantially. In all regions and all securities of space. Null sec once thriving now as you say is a splinter of what it used to be. Most low sec alliances are now dead since the changes to citadels leaving only a handful of scattered alliances roaming with very little to contest them and not much for them to do.
High sec is a bot hungry area filled with macro miners and 0.01 bots.
I agree bots are a problem. Alas unfortunately making it harder and harder for players to make any income is not the answer as you will push the real players out.
We should put the fight against bots aside just temporarily and be thinking of ways to bolster our player base. Currently there is little to no incentive for new players to pay a subscription because let’s face it. There just isn’t that much to do anymore.
The days of capital brawls are dead since the cyno changes.
And fleets of any sort need to be triglavian due to the pure op factor.
The patch which changed drop rates in complexes killed the isk making ability in low sec. Moon mining is now a joke.
The reason eve was our community base was thriving and content was everywhere but let’s be true. It just isnt there anymore with all of these changes.
The best part of this, is a large portion of the morons who were screaming for moon mining to be an active activity have all quit because the groups they were a part of relied on them (the moons) for their own income and content. But that can be said about a lot of things lately. People in general always demand or defend some change to the game because they lack any amount of foresight of what such changes can bring about to the eve ecosystem because they are only thinking about themselves or their own gameplay.
You know what these actions against the market remind me of? Runescape’s anti-bot changes they did for years in the early 2000s. They had gone as far as to remove the ability for pvp to try and combat RMTers. Later re-implementing it and completely altering death drop mechanics, then when RMTers just started dropping items and gold to the ground they (Jagex) went and stopped those form appearing to other players. That’s not even the end of it, they also implemented a sort of “cap” on trades between players where the values being offered couldn’t exceed a certain % value of each other.
Moral of the story: You can’t combat bots by going after your core game mechanics without killing your game in the process. You want to go after the bots? You have to do it through detection and actual removal - even that that will never rid you of them completely, but it will cause the least amount of harm to your actual players.
They are not combating the bots, no matter what they tell you. If they had wanted to combat the bots they would have kept the blackout.
The percentage of orders which get updated they just showed us is a lie or just a manipulation.
I’ve been trading for years and even in 3rd line almost-empty markets, you get people changing their orders very often - even when the market is dead people alter their orders at least 1 or 2 times a day.
The orders that never change because they are just “fire and forget”, never get filled. Ever. unless they are the only one for days or weeks.
Many orders are only updated at most once or twice because they get filled and they are gone. 1-unit orders for ships, etc.
As for the bots, market traders like me have learnt to handle them easy. You can split your stuff into several orders for the same item, you can crash the market, you can force it to go down and buy it out, etc.
CCP KNOWS ALL THIS.
They are blatantly lying and / or manipulating data. This has other motives. No wonder CCP Falcon abandoned ship after being a hardcore eve player since the game inception. Worse things are coming.
If you know the value of what your produce, you won’t go below that value.
0.01 isker on the opposite, don’t care. So they will “fight” until their value crumble, and a lot of orders remain on the market. Then one month later, no more order, because 0.01 iskers realize they are making too small of a margin. Then people who NEED those items buy them, and the price rises again. When people need lots of items, they buy lots - and you can end up with like 75% of margin. If you rather play the 0.01 isk , you get a tiny margin, and sometimes you are at loss.
The basis is to know what your items are worth, that is, what you required to acquire them - be it through BO, production, or destruction ; and be it time, money, resources, transport, diplomacy. If you don’t know, then you are not valuating your own efforts, and you are slaving yourself “what I don’t know the cost of is free”.
Looking through the comments and hearing what people are planning in-game, it seems what some of us pointed out in the first comments is what’s going to happen: People are simply going to start doing direct trades. I already see discord markets being setup. I guess that works, but damn it’s annoying to do trades that way. Back to the old Diablo 2 days i guess…
Fun fact: In almost every mmo with at least partial player economy that I’ve played, the Eve market is often referenced as something to shoot for. I guess CCP’s recent habbit of fixing what ain’t broken continues…
If you absolutely have to break your working market, at the very least ditch the modification fee rise. 4 (maybe 5 or 6) digits would be manageable, though an unnecessary nerf. If you want to hit bots, hit the bots, don’t try to continuously annoy your normal paying players.
Please don’t lecture me on basic stuff. Im also an industrialist and I won’t sell at loss. If it approaches a value I’m comfortable with, I will buy it out. Or not. Depending on other factors.
In some items the spread is small but in some other items the spread is huge. Some people sell you and fill your buy orders at production cost or even lower.
I’m not complaining about the 4 digit thing. Because the 4-digit would have become the new 0.01 isk.
My gripe is the relist fee. They are claiming the relist fee is to combat market BOTS. They did not need to change the rules to deal with market bots because
1- they 100% destroy a profession for legit players like all of us traders
2- we traders dealt with bots daily and, let’s be honest, they are dumb as F. We deal with them easily.
So CCP is manipulating you into believing it’s about bots when in reality they have other ideas in mind … all while destroying a legit profession.
The relist fee will destroy the profession. This was NOT NEEDED to deal with bots. We players just dealt with them just fine. CCP knows this. Or else I and everyone else would have already been banned for “market botting” because some of our behaviour could also be mistaken with “botting”. But here we are. If we are not banned, they knew about us. Simple as that.
If you really had dealt with them fine, there would not be anymore bot. Of course “we players” (lol) just coped with it. But this still made botting worth it, so no you are not dealing with them.
And yes, such a change (not necessarily this one) is mandatory to prevent bots from being more efficient than players at trading. As long as the mechanism reward the fast reacting and always-aware, bots will be the winners - not the players.
The guy has a legitimate point. CCP don’t give any evidence for bots and hint they suspect bots in a really ffffking tiny % of all orders made in game (fraction of 1.8%).
You don’t make sweeping changes like this due to an issue of that size normally. Especially an issue which could be dealt with by other means such as creating a captcha for specific trade items that CCP suspect bots are effecting.
The thing is, you never give clear evidence of the bots, or the bot users will know how to avoid it.
If you don’t trust CCP on their bots data, don’t. Your opinion on the topic is of no concern. Your opinion on whether CCP is lying, just because you dislike the modification, is just BS.
I agree that this modification may reduce your ability to acquire isk in the game (not really sure actually). Does not mean that you can say that CCP has “hidden agenda” nor that their point is invalid “just because”.
My point is the bots were inconsequential / irrelevant
And here you are talking about “mandatory” things to do to deal with a problem that was never a problem in the first place. CCP has already influenced you to start seeing a problem where there was none, and made you believe “we need mandatory changes to deal with it” so that you go along with their changes.
As for adapting, sure, I can adapt. This change will make it easier for people with financial muscle to kick everyone else out of the market, because we can sell at loss till you realise you cannot relist your orders any longer without incurring a loss. At which point you will leave the market frustrated.
Did you know orders have an internal id? I can code something using the ESI services that show me how many times I’ve relisted an order, and how much money I’m losing on each. I can keep tabs on everything and break even. Most of the playerbase who don’t trade? I dont think so.
You dont destroy a profession just to deal with a small number of bots that did not affect antying to beging with. You might as well shut down the servers. That will kill every bot 100% guaranteed. ROFL
That is the exact question one should put. You guys dwell upon intricacies of eve market, industry, mining, pve, ploting theories and solutions wondering why CCP/PA is shooting its knee. Well, maybe they want to change the game radically not loosing majority of player base within few months of the process. The more, If you want to understand it, you really need to look at it in a perspective as a large picture what is going on in the game lately. It’s kind of obvious where the game is heading right now.
What do you think happened before the computer age ( before 2000), that was done manually at a human speed .
And I am sure, the human way is still use in certain case .
@MarkaLoo
it is simply over for a simple reason :
There is no more product with sufficient movement between BO and SO
back in 2013, 2014 the plex every 20s there was a Bo and a So executed,
my Bo or So will be done sometimes just after finish to launch it
Sometimes I was compelled to refresh my orders in less than a minute
The HR trade is poarticularly adapted to the new trader with few isk .
I can only buy 4 at the beginning ( 1 plex = 1B , old plex) without running short of isk
the return was quite instantaneously
The pay was not so bad 500M/h but it is so remarquable to see how the market breath.
It is like surfing into the flow of plex
Shame, CCP cease to inform us about the plex in his economic report
Now the market is so slow, it is a non-sens to speak about HR trade when you have to wait more than 10mn.
@Xeux
Alright this is the buyer point of view : the demand
The point of view of the seller, trying to be the one you buy from is slightly different
If it is a rare product : you’ll have to comply with the price
If it is a common product : the sellers will be at each other throat
so expect a rapid decline of the cost for you
The real change for you is to acquire the product through the BO , that would be harder with common product
I think this change would be good for the buyer ( who use the product not to resell it )
@Optimus_Maximus
You right about the destruction of certain method to trade .
You just have to find a new way to compensate the shrinking margin.
Buying really low stock in one place and move it to the second assure you even after 10 change a day some margin ( riskier, tedious ).
Waiting with different stock bought at a low peak and selling them at a high peak , with a panel of different saisonality of products you can cover every month of the year ( there are a lot of drawbacks to this method).
The trade methods are as vast as your imagination
@Wade_Deadpool_Willson
I am not sure that the market is stable , and that question suggests to have some insight informations of the game )
When you see the evolution of the isks in game, it is quite explosive .
A stable market would mean for example to have a stable price of the plex so it is relating to the player base.
What is the consequence of the trading in the market , stable factor or chaos factor ?
CCP says with these changes that we are the bane of the game
My funny definition of a pure trader
never manufacture
never pvp
never pve
never explore
… and tax to death all the other players
I don’t “see” a problem. I accept that there are bots, when CCP says that they are a problem(but you can just research by yourself, you will have people talking about market bots a lot).
I don’t pretend that I know the effect of bots, but I know that a system that rewards bots is bound to make them thrive. Then you can’t chase them, because it costs too much. The only solution against bots is to make them not worth : to make their environment so not worth that the bots are not worth their development time.
So either you make the system not reward boting behavior, or you integrate bots in your systems, by making their functions available to everybody. However the later requires a lot more work than just adding a new tax and tweaking values.
Example for this is ESI : CCP is making people access programmatically with the game.
At which point you are just losing money. Just like now. So you are saying that this update won’t actually change anything ! Whoa !!!
Has anyone at CCP stopped to think about what the new optimal strategy to minimize brokers fees is going to be and how human input trading compares to botting in this regard ?
What it comes down to is that in order to minimize fees when undercutting you will have to minimize the item stack size.
Market actors - and i would suspect bots in particular - alreay use multiple smaller stacks of items to bypass the 5 minute update timer.
In the future system bots will easily be able to handle a large amount of orders of the smallest stack sizes, but for us humans it’s an insufferable imposition to sell our items one by one rather than in stacks.
We won’t be able to minimizie our fees like that and we will still get undercut by bots on a regular basis.
Not only will the bots sell more units but through optimal brokers fee minimization the bots profit margin will be higher than a humans and that is a new CCP home made advantage for bot users over regular players.
