Because this has nothing to do with highsec capitals.
Also, please stop with the ridiculous circlejerk with your corp member, nobody thinks your prepared lines are a real conversation.
Why not? That’s only battleship range EHP, having a capital ship be barely tougher than a ship 10% of its size is absurd.
In Vladimir’s defense, 500k EHP is considerably more than pretty much any battleship fit.
But if you’re going to reduce the EHP potential of carriers so harshly, a corresponding reduction in build requirements (and thus the ISK cost) would be appropriate.
I have no feelings on this one way or another but I think that would be best discussed separately.
Other threads have pointed out that there is a decidedly non-linear progression of EHP by ship class. The subcapital lineup is roughly self-consistent, and the capital ships are also roughly self-consistent, but there are two hangups:
I think this is a topic worth discussing in relation to fixing overall capital/subcapital balance, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be part of this topic as that would apply game-wide, not just to a limited swath of hisec.
PvP trash can’t comprehend English now, too bad.
Why not? That’s only battleship range EHP, having a capital ship be barely tougher than a ship 10% of its size is absurd.
Your the one complaining about ehp, we have no problem with capitals in highsec with current ehp or after a game wide nerf, your the one complaining about ehp, here is a solution. You refusing to accept the solution is proof of your hypocrisy.
Sure, I’m all for making capitals cheaper, but I thought you wanted less capitals in the game, wouldn’t keeping the price the same be a better alternative, since scale on power go down the more money you spend? So for decent punch and price you get a battleship, for abit more power in a 1 man package you go battleship, but pay much more.
I have no feelings on this one way or another but I think that would be best discussed separately.
Not really, you know that I think your idea is stupid because it is a nerf to highsec, I have no problems compromising fairly with my full access to capitals in highsec idea, severe ehp nerf I think is a perfect and reasonable change, not only does it solve nulls cap problem, but it allows for a chance to gank capitals, with great effort. For example, 5m ehp titan could realistically be ganked with a fleet of around 200 talos’s, and the kill itself should be worth around what the talos’s cost.
Thoughts?
Other threads have pointed out that there is a decidedly non-linear progression of EHP by ship class. The subcapital lineup is roughly self-consistent, and the capital ships are also roughly self-consistent, but there are two hangups:
Then vladimirs suggestion is a perfect solution to this problem.
There is a massive gap in EHP between the top of the subcap lineup (battleships) and the bottom of the capital ships (carriers).
Solved by a severe nerf to ehp, now it makes more sense to try and balance the pvp meta around battleships, capital ships will be token strategic pieces or very expensive slight advantage props in fights, you get maybe 10 battleships in one, for 300x the price.
The slope of EHP increase within the capital lineup is radically steeper than within the subcap lineup (so bigger classes gain EHP far more quickly).
Solved by ehp nerf 
I think this is a topic worth discussing in relation to fixing overall capital/subcapital balance, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be part of this topic as that would apply game-wide, not just to a limited swath of hisec.
Oh now you don’t get to deflect, especially since your such a champion of ‘just and honorable discourse.’ Firstly highsec needs the same access across its space as nullsec has, any less will simply be a nerf, I’ll be in favor of your plan only when you are in favor of capitals only being allowed in -1.0 to -0.7 nullsec truesec. If you disagree, then your a hypocrite.
Broad nerf to the game affects all ships, it solves nullsec’s problem of cap proliferation (best ideas fix multiple problems), it MEANS MORE CAP DESTRUCTION WOHOOO, just what you want, because now caps can be ganked with great effort, while before with 25m ehp it was a near impossibility, so you and Merin are happy. And finally, it allows for miners, pve, and carebears to work to get their ‘trophy’ that big titan that can be used for causal showing off or mining, and for some ratting or mission running, with enough weakness in ehp pool to possible get ganked every once in awhile.
Uh, no, I’m not complaining about EHP in general. I have an issue with EHP in the single specific context of your desire to have CONCORD-protected farming capitals with enough EHP to make suicide ganking impossible. I have raised no objection with EHP in the context of capital balance in general, and the one specific issue is easily solved by continuing to block capitals from highsec.
Firstly highsec needs the same access across its space as nullsec has
Firstly highsec needs the same lack of CONCORD across its space as nullsec has
Nope because then highsec is nerfed compared to nullsec. Your a hypocrite and have no problem with this, highsec residents however are starting to wake up and are beginning to see the issue. Full capital access for all highsec systems, no compromises it seems, for even when compromises are suggested people like you hate them, so we’ll just force the issue down your throat and continue to advocate for it.
Firstly highsec needs the same lack of CONCORD across its space as nullsec has
lol no, we outnumber you and thus that’ll never happen
Anyways I’m gonna take a break from this thread, idea sucks and people who hate highsec like @Merin_Ryskin and @Bronson_Hughes will just continue to argue for the same trash that’ll only harm highsec.
-1 for a stupid idea, I’m out o7
STOP MAKING THIS COMPARISON.
Highsec and nullsec are not opposing factions in EVE. The fact that some players choose to play with self-imposed restrictions like “I never leave highsec” does not mean that all of highsec is united in opposition to nullsec. Highsec is just one of EVE’s regions, often used by the exact same players that use nullsec space.
Full capital access for all highsec systems, no compromises it seems, for even when compromises are suggested people like you hate them, so we’ll just force the issue down your throat and continue to advocate for it.
That’s nice. The reality of the situation is that capitals in highsec is an idea that faces overwhelming opposition from both the players and CCP. The only minuscule chance of it ever happening is with major nerfs/restrictions (permanent suspect flag, requiring them to be in a war-eligible corp, etc). Taking an absolute “NO COMPROMISES ONLY FARMING” position is only guaranteeing that nobody will take you seriously.
lol no, we outnumber you and thus that’ll never happen
Neither will highsec capitals.
But, nice to see you continue to admit that you’re ok with highsec having special rules when those rules benefit you.
Hardly. Deflecting would be saying it didn’t need to be discussed at all dismissing/ignoring the topic completely. I’ve found that topics like this tend to fare much better if they stay relatively narrow in scope; broad sweeping discussions and changes tend to be much harder to follow or consider.
I do think this is a good discussion to have, but it’s worth having on its own, independent of whether capital ships should be operating in hisec. Aside from being a cleaner discussion, I’m sure that quite a few folks with much more experience with capital ships would be willing to chime in on that topic but would likely gloss over a topic like allowing capital ships into hisec.
I find it amusing that you think I hate hisec just because I don’t have exactly the same vision for it as you do. Quite the contrary, I love hisec. I know you love hisec too, I just happen to be looking at this situation with a different perspective than you.
Thanks for realizing that you’ve said your peace and seeing yourself out. I appreciate it.
I’m going to respond on this topic to this thread because it has a lot more well thought out posts with real pros and cons.
What I see with all of the “counters” to capitals in high sec is that they only hurt the little guy. Take the always suspect counter; if you are in a fleet of 100 caps does that really matter?
I agree that suspect flag mechanics would definitely hurt pilots wanting to fly capital ships around hisec solo. You’d be vulnerable to any pilot in a frigate with a scram keeping you pinned down. (Ignore the fact that in this case, the frigate pilot is “the little guy”, but you see where I’m going with this.) But as you, I, and others have often said…capital ships were never intended to be operated alone.
The joy of this is that the suspect flag is indiscriminate. Versus a lone capital ship or a large group of them, capital ships would be equally powerless to resist.
Take a situation where a group of 100 carriers are bashing a hisec structure as part of a wardec. Some upstart group with 50 neutral battleships wants to rain on their parade. In any other region of space, the carriers would crush a battleship fleet outright by way of their sheer EHP, DPS, and numerical advantage. But that assumes that all of the carriers can fight all of the battleships at once.
In hisec it would be different. Between the suspect flag on all of the carriers and the recent changes to Crimewatch mechanics (i.e. if you remote assist a suspect/LE in hisec you get a visit from CONCORD) that 100 carriers vs 50 battleships massacre turns into a hundred instances of 50 battleships vs a single carrier.
Those odds very heavily favor the smaller group.
Would the battleship pilots be able to save the structure? Maybe? But even if they don’t, they’d take a few of the carriers down with the structure, and that is far more content than hisec structure bashes tend to produce currently. Plus, there’s the fact that under current mechanics, a neutral fleet can’t intervene at all, so even if the mechanics didn’t favor the smaller, neutral group, you’d get more content regardless.
The more and more I think about this, the more I firmly believe that the my version 4 (i.e. permanent suspect, no avoidance mechanisms) is the best way to go. It’s cleaner, it’s simpler, and it forces large groups who want to use capital ships in hisec to do so at risk.
It does, if 99 other caps cannot help you, which is the case in highsec.
I think I need to keep you on speed dial as my overthinking translator.
Heh.
Well there is that, but that also is symptomatic of the basic issue, square peg, round hole.
I’m not following the analogy here.
Oversized peg, maybe, but definitely the same shape.
(I’m being mostly serious here since structure bashes are one of the primary use for capital ships. But only mostly because, well, Monday morning before coffee…)
Ok if high sec were to get super capitals does that mean WH space should get them to?
You may want to take that up with him in his thread on a similar topic. Supers and Rorqs in hisec aren’t being discussed here, and the consensus of folks in this thread is (I think?) that letting them in would be a horrible idea.
(And to be clear, I personally think allowing them in would be horrible for the game.)
Im 100% against it to.