Catalyst Mining Issue-Accessing Mercoxcit with Ventures

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

Catalyst Update has brought some interesting problems to light with mining gameplay.

One of the more troubling issues is the fact that when CCP decided to “Quarter” all mining lasers to 1/4 of their normal operating times. They also quarted their yields.
IE ORE Deep Core Mining Laser is 60 sec (Pre-Catalyst) → 15sec (Post-Catalyst)
It yield was by 2025 - 80m3 (Pre-Catalyst) → 20m3 (Post Catalyst)

Now the problem is Deep Core Mining Lasers need to be 40m3 minimum to interact with Mercoxcit. If it is below this threshhold you can not pick this ore up.

However, we do have some ships that are bonused to pick them up. IE. Mining Frigates/Expeditions. (And Technically the Mining Destroyers…however the other elephant in the room rears its head with these modules. T1 Deep Core Mining Lasers and ORE Deep Core Mining Lasers have a fitting requirement per mining laser of 150Tf.)

So you can see the really painful issues with T1 Deep Core and ORE Deep Core just on the fitting front. So this test…is going to assume we are using a Genolution Pod + Michi + MX + Aoede in the low slot. Just for fairness of yields. Its the only way to standardize the data

Now the purpose of this data is to compare between 2020-2025-2026. And show some of the problems currently in game with a bonused ship.

2020 Data Point is when I came into the game…and also the T2 Modulated Deep Core Miner was using Specialty ORE Crystals (Mercoxcit II in this case) and were done by yield.

So the benchmark is 180sec period. So T1 Deep Core and ORE Deep Core are 60sec per cycle. Circa 2020-2025. So 60sec x 3 cycle = 180sec. So you can compare them yield wise.

Then in 2026 due to CCP changing 60sec cycles to 15sec cycles. You have to go 15 x4 = (60sec x 3) (60 sec cycles) = 180sec.
With T2 Modulated Deep Core Mining laser being 4x 45sec = 180sec. Fairly simple and straight forward.

** Also a special note: in around 2021/2022 CCP buffed the Ore Deep Core from 40m3 → 80m3. So when 2026 came around…its the only ORE Deep Core Mining Laser that can pick up Mercoxcit on a Venture! Using the 100% hull bonus for mining lasers…to go from 20m3 to 40m3. So you can pick up 1 Mercoxcit Block (which is 40m3)

Left is baseline stats of the ORE Deep Core (Post-Catalyst) Right is the ORE Deep Core just put into a hull. (Combination of 100% hull bonus + Hull skill bonus + mining skills (Astrogeology))…still stuck at 1 block. (Even with ~78m3)

Okay first things to set the stage.
Basic data. Everyone should be able to look at and say…okay we get this.
Single Mining Laser

Paired Mining Laser (Two on Venture)

Special Note here…from this point on…any Red Boxed number means its base module can not pick up Mercoxcit…below the 40m3 requirement. This is applies to T1 Deep Core Mining Laser.

ah but here is where some little issues in comparison start to show up.
Ventures at 60sec.
Single Laser

Paired Laser (2x)

Ventures at 120sec.
Single Laser

Paired Laser (2x)

Ventures at 180sec
Single Laser

Paired Laser (2x)

Its actually interesting to see both the buff to the ORE Deep Core Miner…and the loss of m3 from 2020 to 2025 via the change over to “unified crystals” in the data. I would also point out…that a baseline unmutated T2 Modulated can get a total of 1024m3…but I was going maximum comparisons mutations only to maximum yield. No bonus yields or residue data has been factored in as well.

Now if we consider some materials involved how many Mercoxcit Blocks were being collect per cycle times over the years?

Now note I put 0 for the T1 Deep Core Mining Laser in 2026…thats for the baseline, you have to mutate to get 1 block. So its not a good metric.
This is just cycle collected blocks. As you can see we are losing yields a bit between 2020 and 2025.

Now if we were to compare between 2020 through 2026 at a full 180sec cycle system. So all are properly compared. You will notice that the ORE Deep Core Mining Laser begins to become much more interesting. Now you can correlate this data a bit further yield.

Although I should be frank on this line of thinking. CCP does need to adjust the CPU of the Deep Core Mining Miners…both T1 and ORE to around 95Tf. Because you shouldn’t have to mutate to get a better fit.

Lowest you can potentially achieve is a 120Tf (God Rolled) CPU cost. But you can easily penalty back into unfittable again.

And the issue of not being able to pick up Mercoxcit is further compounded by Catalyst changes to yields + unbonused hulls. So getting at Mercoxcit is not more problematic and frustrating…even without fitting frustrations involved.

[Dark_Lord_Trump]

If you can only mine 10m3 at a time doesn’t that just mean you have a 25% chance of getting a rock?

Also the t1 deep cores are just trash, use the t2 ones.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

The T1 Deep Cores are usually the first option most people get access to. Via the Deep Core Skills.

It has been 40m3…until the Catalyst update dropped it to 10m3.

I don’t think so with the cycle time thing. Even with Bonus…it probably would still require one block minimum to trigger off.

I have run the T1s with a Prospect…but that hull has a few different bonuses in play, and four lowslots.

But also in factor, that they can not really fit…and these are supposed to be the starting option to get into this particular content.

Even to break into 40m3 minimum for the T1 Deep Core you are spending quite a bit of ISK to abyssal role, have Genolutions, Michi and MX.

Where as before Catalyst this wasn’t really a problem…except the fitting issue. (Which has never been resolved…and the abyssal mutation system isn’t really a resolution more like a work around with massive RNG.)

You are correct they are “trash” because they can’t fit, nor can they pick up the ore. But I am of the opinion CCP shouldn’t have things that have no use. When they did have a cost benefit usage case in the past. (But now they really don’t have options period.)

[Gerard_Amatin]

@MILINT_ARC_Trooper

Now the problem is Deep Core Mining Lasers need to be 40m3 minimum to interact with Mercoxcit. If it is below this threshhold you can not pick this ore up.

Did you test this claim?

Because I think what you say is wrong. The Catalyst expansion changed how mining yield is rounded down, and also added the possibility to round up to the point that on average you get the yield you see in the picture.

Say an abyssal ice mining laser got a negative roll on yield and went from 1000 m3 (one block of ice) to 990 m3, it is not suddenly worthless by ‘never being able to pick up a block again’, it just has one empty cycle once every 100 cycles on average. The rest of the rolls are rounded up. And with a good enough duration roll this module might even beat a non-abyssal ice mining laser in yield.

With that knowledge it should be possible to pick up 40 m3 mercoxit blocks even with a tool that mines 10 m3 per cycle.

Unless CCP forgot about mercoxit in their changes (which I wouldn’t be surprised about) I would expect a 10 m3 Deep Core Mining Laser I to get one block of mercoxit (40 m3) on average once every four cycles of 15 seconds each. So about one block per minute.

In other words, like it used to be before.

So, have you tested your claim?

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

I have been doing runs out into nullsec for this exact reason.

Again…we are having as you have said some problems with the stats.

This is why elsewhere…I have made the claim…it feels like Ice Mining. 1-2 blocks…just like Ice Mining Lasers do. Where as ice mining lasers post catalyst have a 1300m3 (situation)

I am testing that…I am seeing the same thing with other mining lasers. Inconsistences with mining numbers. I have over 200+ abyssal T1 deep core mining lasers. Another 100+ mutas and mining lasers. as well it takes forever to roll these things.

You have to be thorough.

This is a Prospect Fit that has been doing consistent studies on this particular subject…with Abyssal Modded T1 Deep Cores.

However, I am not 100% sure if the new mathematics is doing something a bit off.
Because one of the Abyssal T1s is fairly consistent with 2 blocks (ergo the 80m3 cycle) vs. the 1 Cycle (40m3)

Now remember this is a Prospect. Which has a 100% hull bonus + 5% per skill level +5% per skill level system.

Now I might actually do a run with flat T1 Deep Core to compare a bit further. I could probably drop them down to bare minimum to test even further.

But on paper they shouldn’t be able to collect if they fall under that 40m3 minimum.

The main headache with this…is fitting even with abyssal mods and then having to carefully adjust the fits so you can fit materials to increase its yield. Venture require Geno Pod + CPU implant + Michi+ MX.

Its possible but tricky. I am testing a bracket above it…and it seems to be bearing out the concern.

The other issue of yields with other mining lasers is bearing out similiar issues as well. Apparently my ore miners are becoming inconsistent with their pick ups. But yes I am testing this.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@MILINT_ARC_Trooper

But on paper they shouldn’t be able to collect if they fall under that 40m3 minimum.

Yea, that’s kind of one of the main points you make in this thread.

And also the thing I think is wrong.

@MILINT_ARC_Trooper

Now I might actually do a run with flat T1 Deep Core to compare a bit further. I could probably drop them down to bare minimum to test even further.

Great idea!

Please do test with an unbonused module that gets 10 m3, see after a sufficient number of cycles, like 20 or so at least, if you do or do not get a single stack of 40 m3 mercoxit.

My prediction: it works fine and you do you a block.

And if you were to mine a lot more, you would on average get one in four cycles.

[MILINT_ARC_Trooper]

I found something out…that has me raising eyebrows.

T1 Deep Core Mining Laser Max Skills is 39.06 m3 (On a Venture)

there are two interesting points to make here. Either CCP is massively rounding it up…or has hardcoded it to 1 per cycle. Minimum. But that would make the T1 mining laser…more like the ORE Deep Core in 2025. (80m3 + hull bonus minimum = 160 units.) = 4 units per 60sec. 12 units per 180sec. (24 units for two mining lasers) but this not maxed out…so the data is off again.

And I noticed that depending cycle position you get mercoxcit…if you cancel the cycle.

4 x less than 1/4 a cycle. Seems like 1/2 a cycle is counted as well.

bonus yield 1 block = 2 bonus yield. (had that happen as well during this test.)

Out of curiousity to this mechanic…I decided to apply a Reaper corvette as a test ship.
Reaper can fit a Deep Core Miner…just 1. And its also an unbonused ship…so its categorically lower in all respects.

Ironically it applies your concept of 1-4cycles with unbonused ships and sub 20m3 (although it seems its more than that I think 6-8) Although in the first pass I got 1 block of mercoxcit. Second was like 6 passes…then 3rd was like 3-4 cycles. So it would need to be exhaustively tested under lets say…1-2 hours to see how this system works. I despise that the log system is not really conducive this recording of data that I need.

So even though though the stats are minimized and cycle times…in the case of unbonused ships it seems spot on claims both for “equal” cycle times, and the concept of portional cycle time. (as you have discussed) 15sec cycles…so running a T1 deep core mining laser = Pre-Catalyst 40m3 T1 deep core.

For bonused ships…it seems over-torqued. Its doing more than its original stats. 4 cycles do not match the original T1 Deep Core Ore mining laser (Pre-Catalyst) on a Venture. Instead of 40m3 bonused to 80m3…(1 → 2 blocks minimum by hull bonused) its acting like the ORE Deep Core Miner because the cycles are at a fixed 1 block per cycle. And 4 cycles (4 Blocks)-> 160m3. So something isn’t right here.

So the stats on modules are completely not trustworthy. Even more so if an RNG element is added.