Look at all the game design Ph.Ds we got up in here lol.
The players of eve are human. Human beings started out in small groups and ended up in ever larger big cities. Its human nature to group up.
All this talk of small groups every time something happens is nonsense. It was the main thinking behind dominion sov which was supposed to have “small group incentives” but turned out to encourage big groups.
It was also the main thinking behind aegis sov, but I don’t know a single person who says “MAN, I CANT WAIT FOR SOME NODES TO SPAWN SO WE CAN GO AEGIS SOV SOME FOOLS”.
I don’t know what the fix is, but trying to design the game against human nature ( which in this case is the human desire to group together for advantage) has failed several times already.
It hasn’t failed. Players tried to use silly numbers going over silly and obvious limits, got too close to the sun and it burned them. Perhaps they will learn for next time and if they don’t they will get burned yet again. Really simple.
Smart players work within the rules and options they have, to the fullest extend. Dumb players cross those lines and then blame others for the choices they themselves made.
You don’t seem to understand what I wrote at all. Your reply make no sense because of that. It’s like someone asking you what color the sky is and the other guy going on a rant about how they don’t like seafood…
I agree. It can’t work and already doesn’t, even at the large scale. There’s no ‘Coalition’ mechanic in the game, yet no one will argue that coalitions aren’t part of EVE.
No matter what artificial limits CCP implements, we have and always will find both in game and out of game ways to laugh that off and organise into larger, coordinated groups.
There’s no magic bullet that can be applied. This war has been really destructive, because for the most part, the game can cope with the load we impose on it.
But space weather is just a fact that we need to deal with in planning and every time we reach the limit of the technology, it sucks, but it won’t be fixed by imposing limits on play. It’ll be fixed by just waiting for the tech and CCP’s work on the backend to catch up.
Sure. It’s always been a thing. I wrote that in the 4th post in this thread:
This isn’t new. We have literally found the limit of server performance for the entire existence of the game; and it’s always been a factor in planning strategy.
It’s always improving, but what we are also good at is working around mechanics. Coalitions is a good example. They don’t exist as a mechanic in the game, yet they exist and are a huge influence on nullsec.
So artificially limiting what we can do will just instead lead to a different group of people being just as upset as the current situation is.
It’s happened before and it will happen again, but the last thing we need is CCP trying (and failing) to limit how we can play. We’ll just get frustrated as a nullsec community and continue to blame CCP for not delivering what we want.
What we really want is the ability to dump as many people into a system as possible and to have a fight in an environment that is stable enough to facilitate that.
That will only come through continued progress in technology and CCP’s work to refactor the codebase that they are already doing.
No what actually needs to happen is to lower the power and influence of coalitions. The solution to non-sustainable growth isn’t MORE non-sustainable growth.
By limiting the ease of reaching out, the ease and speed of being able to deploy at distances.
If it becomes more difficult to project power, if only because it takes more effort to do and organise and your alliance of lemmings might get bored of doing it over and over, then that will automatically result in there being less need for large coalitions. If you’re outside the realistic control range of a large and powerful alliance you’re not forced to choose to either join them or join the other side.
It’s not a binary thing of course where it will suddenly make coalitions useless but it WILL, over time, decrease the use and need for them and that WILL have an effect.
That was already part of the conditions that led to the outcome of this fight. PAPI were still running move ops in part because of existing projection limitations, right up to the start of the “fight”. Goons had completed their prep over the last week.
Goons had no issue being ready locally. That’s part of what this whole whine thread is about (and it’s been mentioned a couple of times that it now seems impossible to ever dislodge Goons from Delve).
Goons had a home advantage of first to field in large numbers. No coalition was needed for them to win the fight, but if the idea is to make it even harder for attackers to project, then Goons would still hold the systems they owned in Fountain, Querious, etc. that have been lost in the last few weeks.
So beyond capital projection nerfs that were implemented with jump fatigue and range limitations, what do you suggest as the way to limit projection further without pissing the community off and that will somehow make it easier for PAPI to take the war to goons (or two different entities in the future)?
Don’t do the “the half arsed nerf didn’t fully avoid this problem therefore the method doesn’t work”. You’re better than that.
More of those nerfs for all capitals and all jump gates, lower the capability to easily move massive amounts of fire power, goods and support. THAT is how you reign is the massive coalitions and that is the only way to do it. You might not like the answer, or even the idea of making coalitions less powerful, but if the question is how to lower their power then the answer is to limit their influence.
The only thing I don’t particularly like about your answer is that it’s just full of flower text and nothing of any substance. It doesn’t actually offer anything beyond aspirations, for something that can’t be achieved.
Coalitions already don’t exist in the game. They are a purely out of game construct that significantly benefit from only a few mechanics:
standing settings in game
structure access lists
fleets
Aside from that, there is nothing anyone can do to lower the power of coalitions, because they aren’t actually part of the game already; and there is no way to limit people organising and working together out of game, that allows them to coordinate in the game.
basically this is the rock bottom truth of the matter. Yes we will be talking to CCP about this (hell that conversation has already started) but honestly? What do you expect? Eve players will always push the limits.
that some will cry when the limits are reached is also a given.
But damn . . . I was looking forward to watching that second brawl (from a distance)
What CCP says as a result of this is a wait and see situation as this battle did hit on a weekend. But know that not just Brisc will be asking questions.
Personally, I would argue that after 16 years, the professional and respectful way to convey items/feelings need to be forgotten. I would also argue that at this point, CCP needs to come out publicly with detailed updates (including tech specs and numbers) regarding the current and new servers, the status of their development and what are they going to implement moving forward in order for the current servers to hold the load. And when I say CCP, I do mean Hillmar.
They did a whole blog on TQ3, including some numbers, and on some other things like Dogma rewrites and brain in a box. I assume you’ve already read them all given your complaint so can detail where they were lacking right?
Not exactly. If we remove the server issues, the other truth of the matter is that we (the Imperium) were willing to prepare and preposition for the fight hours before (as per Asher, 6-7 hours ahead of the timer). No war is ever won by randomly jumping into enemy territory 1 hour before hand. And Papi could have tried to contest all of this, but instead their “genius” FCs decided to do nothing and wait. From a military pov, what PAPI did is full incompetence
When was the last time we heard about the development of the new servers? Specifically referring to the Aether Engine. According to the Hadean site, the prototype used for the tests was completed in 8 weeks by 7 devs…
When was the last time you heard about planned changes in your local supermarket shelf layout?
We are just customers. Nothing more.
We buy a product. We have no rights to expect CCP give us anything other than what they agree to in their obligations under the EULA (even though they do give us a lot more), in the same way that as consumers, we don’t expect other businesses we buy from to devote their time to feeding us information.
We aren’t entitled to anything. Either buy the product or don’t, but expecting CCP to give us information about development more than they already do is ridiculous.
