Chaos Era Continues - Cyno Update

[Infinite_Destruction]

Another stupid move that seems to be aimed at closing off Null to all except the big alliances.

Remember when the Sov changes were made ? Supposedly they were supposed to “open” Null sec up to the smaller Alliances and (larger) corps.

Then what did they do ? NERFED the jump range of capitals and added “fatigue” just to make things even stupider. And to make it harder for those smaller groups to even get into Null.

Now they are going even more retarded by requiring cyno alts to be in Recons in order to light cynos ? KNOWING that they are no doubt going to be popped ! Losing an alt in a (free) corvette - no problem. Now you are going to expect them to be in T2 hulls just so some people can pretend they are “l33t” by padding their KB stats with easy Recon kills instead of corvettes ?

HOW is that supposed to “open” Null ? (Answer - it isn’t. It’s about closing it off, not opening it up. Just like how they made things even easier for wormholers so they can close their holes and keep everyone else out.)

The smaller groups are not even going to bother with Null anymore. Why ? It’s not worth the effort to even try and get there anymore, let alone try to take some space and go through all the Sov BS that you have to do now.

My old corp had 6 cap pilots and they moved ships (dreads/carriers/Rorqs and JFs) around all the time before the range nerf. Each pilot had a cyno alt (and each cyno had a couple of jump clones). In 2 days those 6 pilots moved 8 Dreads, 8 Carriers, 2 Rorqs and 2 JFs a total of 4 (long) jumps by swapping toons and cyno alts.

After CCP nerfed jump ranges, that same trip would now require 12 jumps, meaning having to put more alts in more stations (assuming there are stations they could set up in now) and taking weeks instead of days.
WoW. Great improvement !

Now you want ALL those alts to be in Recon ships in order to light the cynos ?

Bah. Screw that BS. The caps will just get parked and that’s it. Nice work CCP.

Let’s see how CCP “opens” Null up.
Nerfs Cap jump ranges and adds “fatigue” to make it more difficult to move Caps around, especially for smaller groups (but actually thinks people will just use normal gates to move their fleets around Null).
Changed the Sov system because “waaa - killing POS’s was oppressive and couldn’t be done with a single F1 click and that meant it took effort - waaaaa”.
Nerfs the Nullification on Combat Inty’s because “Waaaa - we don’t want them coming into our space”.
Considers nerfing Warp Stabs because “Waaaa - they are oppressive and we can’t get easy kills on defenseless ships when they have stabs fitted”.
Considers forcing people to use T2 hulls to light cynos because that will certainly entice them to move their caps around more.
(LoL and I have a nice bridge I can sell you in Iceland.)

Seems more like they are setting things up so that the bigger groups can close off Null, instead of opening it up like they (CCP) claimed they were trying to do.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

@Arrendis

Can’t back up? Go around . No region is as easy to lock down completely as you want to make it out to be. Go the long way around. Fit a probe launcher and find a route in through wormholes.

It may take time , but it’s not difficult , Miz.

When you can make every pipeline towards a contested area impassable for anything that isn’t interdiction immune, and can roll away any dangerous holes with relative ease, then it is in fact pretty damn impossible. The defenders may have all the time in the world, but anyone on the offensive have very short windows of opportunity when they’re not a retardedly broken large alliance.

You genuinely haven’t the faintest clue how Eve works if you’re not a goon or goon equivalent, do you? Not everyone can throw unlimited numbers at a problem until it’s brute forced away, and when that is no longer an option… defenders’ advantage is already broken strong and in that scenario impenetrable.

Interdiction nullification is a vital offensive tool if you’re not a gargantuan broken blob.

[Arrendis]

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Not everyone can throw unlimited numbers at a problem until it’s brute forced away

I’m not the one talking about throwing unlimited numbers at a problem. I’m talking about doing what we did when I lived in j-space with a 30-man corp and needed to get our haulers past a camp. I’m talking about the things we did when LAWN or other smaller then-CFC groups went on deployment without the ‘unlimited resources’ of the Coalition. I’m talking about all of the ways we got attacked before the 2014 changes during the Halloween War that made Interceptors nullified: you find ways around.

It doesn’t take unlimited numbers. It just takes persistence, and a bit of effort.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

Which in most nullsec conflicts is not an option because windows of opportunity don’t allow for that kind of time spent. Almost everything in that regard happens on timers that are short as hell, and it becomes completely and utterly irrelevant what you could do in those other situations because they don’t have the same limitations.

If you can’t brute force it with infinite numbers, time constraints ensures it’s damn near impossible to “go around.”

To just “find ways around” you need either vast numbers for brute forcing wh paths, checking every possible pipe and so on, or you need vast amounts of time to do the exact same. When you’re on the offense, you don’t have that kind of time, so that leaves either vast numbers or simply not being viable in nullsec.

Examples from the Ye Olden times don’t really hold up anymore, with the way everything’s changed. The defenders already have the advantage in Eve, and every single tool taken away vastly dis-proportionally hurts the attackers in these scenarios. Interdiction nullification is quite simply too important of one.

I’m dead serious, if you can’t see how that’s an issue, you genuinely haven’t the faintest understanding of how Eve works as a smaller entity today.

[Arrendis]

Ok, so let me see if I understand the picture you’re trying to paint.

1. There’s a small group.
2. It needs to get into space held by a group large enough to put massive titan camps on every single possible way into the region and simultaneously roll every hole that pops up.
3. It needs to get in there because it’s going after a timer.

So a small group is invading the space of a group much, much larger in order to blow up structures? Because… why? Small groups don’t tend to invade the space of large blocs. That’s not ‘most nullsec conflicts’.

Most nullsec conflicts are between small groups, or between larger blocs, or small hunting parties going into hostile space on their timetable and not giving a damn about timers. And if they’re going in on their own timetables, then yeah, they have the time to go around. It’s their time.

But hey, let’s say there is a timer involved, like you’ve said! If it’s a group that went in once already to set a timer, why didn’t they leave the force recon there when they went in last time?

If it’s a group that’s so small that no, they can’t afford to lose a single alt for a week (tops!) despite a solo player like you having a dozen or so alts, making billions of isk on the market the way you’ve bragged multiple times… if a ‘small group’ is so small that they can’t afford to set one alt aside as well as a solo player can… maybe they shouldn’t be looking to hit timers in that particular stretch of space?

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

If you’re not going to argue honestly here, there’s not much point to this. You know very well you don’t need to be goon sized to make impassable gates these days, and smaller groups have already been part of larger conflicts in this way anyway. If you’re not interested in acknowledging these things after they even happened against you lot, there’s not much to discuss I think.

Why would I be surprised that you’re in favor of the removal of tools smaller groups can need but big ones don’t?

[Arrendis]

How am I not arguing honestly? You objected to my suggestion that they go around, because the defenders:

@Mizhara_Del_thul

can make every pipeline towards a contested area impassable for anything that isn’t interdiction immune, and can roll away any dangerous holes with relative ease

How’s that different from

@Arrendis

a group large enough to put massive titan camps on every single possible way into the region and simultaneously roll every hole that pops up

How is it dishonest to ask you if I understand what you’re saying?

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

You know very well that the scenario you’re presenting isn’t even near what is being talked about, your group has already faced it and now I’m starting to wonder if that’s the reason you’re dissembling.

You’re not that daft, so creating disingenuous scenarios like that… what, am I supposed to pretend it doesn’t come across as massively dishonest? I swear, I never learn. Every time you get involved in any discussion, you do this. Literally every possible tool spent to avoid even coming close to possibly being wrong. In this case, entire straw scenarios no one were even close to.

Meh, why am I even trying? You’d argue against literally anything that isn’t beneficial to goons, and in favor of literally anything that is, no matter what or how it’d affect non megablocs.

Edit: Don’t bother, I have heard every personal attack from you before. Your usual retreats are all too predictable.

[xOmGx]

BTW CCP how many acc desubbed and resubbed due to Blackout?

[Arrendis]

@Mizhara_Del_thul

You know very well that the scenario you’re presenting

I’m asking you what the hell scenario you’re presenting. I AM NOT PRESENTING A SCENARIO AT ALL.

And then you accuse me of not arguing honestly. Just tell me what the hell actual scenario you’re presenting, then. I’m trying to figure out what the hell you’re saying, because obviously, no, I do not know what the hell you’re talking about. What’s next? Saying ‘No, I don’t telepathically know what you mean’ is a personal attack?

@Mizhara_Del_thul

You’d argue against literally anything that isn’t beneficial to goons, and in favor of literally anything that is

While I’m actively saying ‘GET RID OF ALL SUPERCAPITALS AND JESUS CHRIST KEEPSTARS WERE A DAMNED MISTAKE THAT UNFAIRLY ADVANTAGES THE LARGE GROUPS’?

Yeah, ok. I don’t think I’m the one being dishonest here. So go on now, say I’m resorting to personal attacks while insisting the constant ‘you’re not arguing honestly’ isn’t you going for personal attacks.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

@Arrendis

I’m asking you what the hell scenario you’re presenting.

Presenting nonsense scenarios is not asking sod all. It’s for all intents and purposes strawmanning. I’m done bothering with your dissembling, dishonest bullcrap. When you’ve quite literally never before shown any willingness to be honest with me, now included, I’m just done with your crap. There’s a reason your chosen tools of “discussion” have soured a damn sight more people than me on you and how you argue.

@Arrendis

So go on now, say I’m resorting to personal attacks

Are you going to pretend this and the previous threads aren’t full of them? It shouldn’t be surprising that it’s an expected pattern by now.

@Arrendis

While I’m actively saying

… things that would affect groups less the bigger they are? Gosh, that’s so convincing.

If you’d ever, literally ever admitted to the crap you do in these discussions, I could conceivably see a reason to continue discussions but that’s never going to happen, is it? It’s just twisting, dissembling, and winning at any cost, with zero sods given about it being honest. It’s damn near heartbreaking, because you are one of those who could do without it, but instead lower yourself to this crap. You even take pride in being more of a troll than honest.

[Arrendis]

@Mizhara_Del_thul

Presenting nonsense scenarios is not asking sod all.

@Arrendis

let me see if I understand the picture you’re trying to paint.

You know, as in ‘tell me if this is wrong’. Yes, that’s asking you to correct me if this is not the case. That is expressly ‘let me try to understand what you’re saying’. Jesus Christ, as soon as you can’t actually refute the points being made, it’s always the same thing ‘you’re not being honest’ ‘you’re resorting to personal attacks’ ‘you’re a goon shill’.

Argue the actual merits of your point. Or don’t, and just shut up. IDGAF which, but the ad hominem bullshite masquerading as principled outrage from you got old five years ago.

[Gud_Fite]

It appears that the two biggest groups in game i.e. TEST and GOONS seem to oppose it in general and others in general seem to support it.

I think it’s time CCP focuses on changes that affects bigger groups more than the smaller groups such as this change. For past 3 years, CCP has made changes that have buffed bigger groups ALOT.

CCP buffed multiboxing Rorquals so much that all other playstyles have died out. It’s about time those rorqs feel more in danger and Capital umbrella deployement on grid isnt isk free cavalry in a moment’s notice.

CCP go for it! But monitor it closely and be prepared to revise it in 3-6 months time.

[Grognard_Commissar]

@Gud_Fite

I think it’s time CCP focuses on changes that affects bigger groups more than the smaller groups such as this change. For past 3 years, CCP has made changes that have buffed bigger groups ALOT.

you’re pretty naiive. the big groups are going to be least affected by this.

[Mizhara_Del_thul]

@Arrendis

Argue the actual merits of your point.

Tried. You decided to, instead of responding to that, conjure up nonsense scenarios you aren’t anywhere near stupid enough to believe was even remotely close to what was discussed. If you wanted argumentation, stop arguing dishonestly and setting up strawmen.

Like I said, you’ll never acknowledge that you do these things, are you?
Why exactly are you expecting me to keep discussing something with you, when you won’t be honest with me?
“Ad hominem bullshite” is kind of cute given what you’ve been throwing around lately.

@Arrendis

Or don’t, and just shut up.

Yeah, that’s how it is, isn’t it? Just keep on until you’ve successfully silenced everyone that isn’t tongue deep in your group’s arse.

[Arrendis]

Yup. Whatever you say, Miz.

[Gud_Fite]

Big groups are the heaviest cap and cyno users, naturally, they’re most affected.

They are the ones who drop Titans on smallest of gangs. They’re the ones who have the most Supers, Carriers, Titans and Rorqs out in space ratting. So they’re the ones who will be affected the most.

Stop misinforming people.

[Qman_TheGreat]

So it sounds like the Devs bck in the Iceland had just too much of Bear meat and now they all got Trichinosis. That would explain this totally stupid decision’s they been doing lately

[Grognard_Commissar]

no, they’re also the ones most capable of throwing away 500m ships for cynos. trust me, goons already have plans for adapting to this.

[Gud_Fite]

Yes, but before, they could get away with throwing 0 isk to defend whatever is ratting out there, but now they’re going to have to throw 500m ships everytime their krab is ganked with no guarantee the cyno would stay up long enough. So, guaranteed 500m loss + chance of actually killing the krab.

VS currently: 0 chance of anything, other than getting bosoned.

CCP: Please also nerf multiboxing ability of Rorqs.