Citadel change suggestions

[Von_Baron_Crimstofrson]

So I’ve been around long enough to remember when citadels were first implemented. The original intention was to replace the old Player Owned Structure system (POS). POS’s are still in the game, so not sure what happened there. I’m guessing they literally can’t be removed due to the game’s spaghetti monster code, but I digress.

If citadels, when they were implemented, were meant to replace POS’s, there are some game design elements that, I think, should have been copied over to citadels, but were not.

1. Citadel tethering.

I understand people will have differing opinions on this, but I think of entering the POS shields as the same as docking in a citadel. Tethering is interesting because it’s like a safety shield that you enter before entering the safety of docking.

With POS’s you can be inside the shields, safe, but you’re still undocked. Tethering allows that same design to exist; but first of all, it doesn’t make sense to apply tethering before docking or just simply warping to the citadel when you can dock as soon as you land. Secondly, you can be docked, inside the citadel, and still view the outside. I get that you don’t have the undocked UI, so that’s not exactly the same as being actually undocked, but if you have permission to man the guns, then it is. For those that don’t have permission to man the guns, I think tethering should only apply after undock.

2. Number of anchorable citadels in a star system, or area.

Under the old POS system, a star system was limited by the number of moons in the system. You can only anchor as many POS’s as there are moons. This created limited housing, which drives conflict. EVE thrives on conflict.

With citadels, there is literally no limit. You can spam as much as you want. This creates unlimited housing, with unlimited storage. This does not drive conflict, and I think does quite the opposite.

If there was a limit on how many citadels could be anchored in an area (star system or constellation), it would limit housing options. If an empire in sov null for example is thinking of expanding currently to accommodate their growing number of capital and super capitals, they just need to anchor another citadel; no problem. If there was a limit, and that empire wanted to expand, but couldn’t because they reached their housing limit for the space they own, they would need to take over somebody else’s space, which would create conflict, which increases daily player login numbers.

3. Mass allowed to be stored inside a citadel.

In some ways, this goes along with my 2nd point. In the old POS system, players were limited by how much mass they could put inside the POS hangars. Even inside the shields, there was an unspoken limit. You can only fit so many ships inside POS shields before they start bumping each other out. For capitals and super capitals, this is a big issue.

With citadels, it’s literally not an issue at all. You can cram as much mass inside the citadel as you want. It has unlimited space! This creates a similar problem as unlimited anchoring. If there is no limit on how much mass can be fit inside a citadel, there is no need to expand to accommodate your growing capital and super fleet. If there is no need to expand your empire, there is no conflict.

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The way citadels are currently designed heavily favors the biggest alliances. They have unlimited housing with unlimited space to store an unlimited number of capitals and super capitals, not to mention amass an unlimited number of ships for their fleets.

If there were limits, like how there was with the old POS system, it would drive those bigger alliances to either 1). expand into new territory to accommodate their growing numbers and operations or 2). use the old fashion logged-off-in-space super-coffin for keeping their capitals and supers in one area, making it more difficult to safely control an area, which levels the playing field.

To end and summarize, I think if citadels had a limit on how many could be in an area, and how much could be stored in those citadels, we would see many more wars, much more conflict, which would bring more people back to EVE, and increase the number of player logged in and engaging with the community either in wars, or on corp voice comms. As far as tethering is concerned, I don’t think it’s really necessary when docking is the same as being inside the POS shields, but I’m okay with tether only after undock.

Thanks for (hopefully) reading the whole thing. Here’s a line of party parrots to congratulate you for making it down the post this far. Now, what do you think?

[Zedva_Operati]

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

If there is no limit on how much mass can be fit inside a citadel, there is no need to expand to accommodate your growing capital and super fleet. If there is no need to expand your empire, there is no conflict.

I don’t have any experience with alliance stuff, but I think there is kinda a difference between dropping another station, and controlling a system.

I think that owning systems is for the resources, and wanting the biggest empire, and plopping stations in a system is so you can base people/ships out of that system

Edit: thanks for the parrots

[Mephiztopheleze]

The ability of a citadel to hold an unlimited amount of ships and material is a bit of a concern. SMAs and XLSMAs had hard limits.

On the subject of why POS are still in the game: i read a rumour some years back that the person who coded it all up didn’t document any of their code. They then left ccp (or had a nasty car accident, reports vary) and ccp have been trying to untangle it ever since.

[Vuhdo_Rin]

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

With POS’s you can be inside the shields, safe, but you’re still undocked. Tethering allows that same design to exist; but first of all, it doesn’t make sense to apply tethering before docking or just simply warping to the citadel when you can dock as soon as you land. Secondly, you can be docked, inside the citadel, and still view the outside. I get that you don’t have the undocked UI, so that’s not exactly the same as being actually undocked, but if you have permission to man the guns, then it is. For those that don’t have permission to man the guns, I think tethering should only apply after undock.

why ? whats the improvement of this ?

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

With citadels, there is literally no limit. You can spam as much as you want. This creates unlimited housing, with unlimited storage. This does not drive conflict, and I think does quite the opposite.

POS system does not get more conflict … and you dont find that much citadells in SOV space which does not belong to you xD

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

If an empire in sov null for example is thinking of expanding currently to accommodate their growing number of capital and super capitals, they just need to anchor another citadel;

would just be crating MORE Citadell spam cause you can block an attack with way more time to defend with 3 timers over 3 days

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

In some ways, this goes along with my 2nd point. In the old POS system, players were limited by how much mass they could put inside the POS hangars. Even inside the shields, there was an unspoken limit. You can only fit so many ships inside POS shields before they start bumping each other out. For capitals and super capitals, this is a big issue.

With citadels, it’s literally not an issue at all. You can cram as much mass inside the citadel as you want. It has unlimited space! This creates a similar problem as unlimited anchoring. If there is no limit on how much mass can be fit inside a citadel, there is no need to expand to accommodate your growing capital and super fleet. If there is no need to expand your empire, there is no conflict.

but you know that the Stations are also got replaced with citadell and stations had unlimited space aswell ? if you want to implement THIS then you need to implement this for NPC Stations aswell !
but under special circumstanced i would appriciate this

at the and → POS are very different to Citadells ! Yes POS should be removed and this couldnt get finished but still a POS and a CItadell are not comparable
if you want to compare a Citadell then you need to compare it with the old SOV Stations which got transformed to the known faction fortizar´s

You think there would be more conflict ? i dont think so, you just would see in every SOV system a spamm of low powered astrahus to block any attacks. so it would result in less conflict. and in Low Sec there is nobody who would spamm such a mass of stations so wouldnt impact it at all because there are still a lot of NPC stations and lot of Low Sec dudes would just use this

@Mephiztopheleze

The ability of a citadel to hold an unlimited amount of ships and material is a bit of a concern. SMAs and XLSMAs had hard limits.

thats a point i would be with this idea but only this. but the “problem” for a mass hardcap on storage would be also a mass spamm of structures. its not possible anymore cause there is to much stuff build in the last 10 years. it startedt ( my opionion ) with the changes to rorquals which could easy mass spamm materials out of nowhere and get a big push of S-caps and Titans.

[Wesfahrn]

I hope you get a job at CCP caus u seem to have good taste and know the game and if someone like this doesent get a job asap the game will be deader within a couple years.

[Von_Baron_Crimstofrson]

@Zedva_Operati

I don’t have any experience with alliance stuff, but I think there is kinda a difference between dropping another station, and controlling a system.

I think that owning systems is for the resources, and wanting the biggest empire, and plopping stations in a system is so you can base people/ships out of that system

Right, people own systems so they can harvest it’s resources; just like in real life. An empire owns an area of space to use that space, harvest, and build in that space. To do so, you need to live in that space. That’s where housing, in this case citadels, come into play.

If you want to own an area of EVE, you need to live there; otherwise anyone can encroach on “your space” and make it theirs. With infinite housing and storage abilities, it makes it that much harder to drive someone out of their space. Conversely, it also makes it that much easier for big alliances to drive smaller alliances out of a space if there are no limits on how many citadels can be anchored, where they can be anchored, and how much can be stored in those citadels. I think this is primarily why null sec is a big blue donut. If the housing mechanics changed, it would force people to take their massive amounts of wealth and spread it out, thus creating conflict with others trying to do the same.

@Vuhdo_Rin

you dont find that much citadells in SOV space which does not belong to you

You haven’t been to sov null recently, have you? The citadel spam is everywhere. It’s a problem.

@Vuhdo_Rin

would just be crating MORE Citadell spam cause you can block an attack with way more time to defend with 3 timers over 3 days

I think there was some confusion here. I was not suggesting that this is how it should be. I was saying this is how it currently is, and it’s a problem.

@Vuhdo_Rin

but you know that the Stations are also got replaced with citadell and stations had unlimited space aswell ?

For those anchorable player stations in sov null, how many could you have in a star system, constellation, or region? Compare that with how many citadels can be anchored in the same area of space. If I remember correctly, you could only anchor one station per system. Additionally, you could not dock super capitals in those station, like you can with keepstars. Combine that with the limit on how many POS’s could be anchored in an area and the mass limits on what could be stored inside, means an alliance had limited space with which to store their super capitals. Now, there is not limit and that’s a big problem.

@Wesfahrn

I hope you get a job at CCP caus u seem to have good taste and know the game and if someone like this doesent get a job asap the game will be deader within a couple years.

Thanks.

[Zedva_Operati]

Oh, ok

[Vuhdo_Rin]

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

If you want to own an area of EVE, you need to live there; otherwise anyone can encroach on “your space” and make it theirs.

you can do it right now if you want oO if you drop a station anywhere in SOV nullsec you could claim it as yours ! but maybe you got dropped by the horde of landlords ? maybe this is the original problem ? no small group can live there if they dont conected to one landlord in the region !

nothing to do with citadells

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

You haven’t been to sov null recently, have you? The citadel spam is everywhere. It’s a problem.

no i was never lived in nullsec, i never flow through nullsec, ive never heard of nullsec … * ironie off *
wtf your talking about ?
there are not 10724610 trillion in every system … there are maybe 1 main system citadell 1-2 other to get safe in a shorter way of warping and then you have the mining citadells on moons … so wheres your problem ? not every moon has a citadel …
btw… spamm does not mean 2 citadell in a system ( not counting the mining ones )

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

I think there was some confusion here. I was not suggesting that this is how it should be. I was saying this is how it currently is, and it’s a problem.

so youre saying they spamm citadells for blocking their space that nobody else can drop a citadell ? thats ■■■■■■■■ … if a take a citadell right now and drop it in 1DQ its getting blown yes but i´m still not blocked to drop it

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

For those anchorable player stations in sov null, how many could you have in a star system, constellation, or region? Compare that with how many citadels can be anchored in the same area of space. If I remember correctly, you could only anchor one station per system. Additionally, you could not dock super capitals in those station, like you can with keepstars. Combine that with the limit on how many POS’s could be anchored in an area and the mass limits on what could be stored inside, means an alliance had limited space with which to store their super capitals. Now, there is not limit and that’s a big problem.

i´m sure you could spam these in every system you want and i´m sure you could drop more then 1 in a system. they just didnt do it cause it was way harder to drop it into space …

no you couldnt dock supers on this stations so what ? now you have structures where you can dock your super or titan oO

no an alliance had no space limit xD not even to supers and titans you can easy get a large pos and log of 100 supers and titans in there and still there are POS with logged of supers and titans and not just 1 or 2 … and now you wanna know where they are ? → on a moon

btw … citadell spamm was way more as you only could have 1 jump clone in a clone bay ! as CCP changed it they reduced the ammount of citadell per system because some of them was only there for jump clones … and you need to think about another fact → you need to fuel any citadell which means you need hard work for this and lot of ISK for fuel every day ! Whats the point of having 10 structures and you only use 3 because 2 are moon mining and the other is a fortizar to dock your ratting carrier ?

[Syzygium]

@Von_Baron_Crimstofrson

The way citadels are currently designed heavily favors the biggest alliances.

Thats why you won’t see a change any time soon. Citadels are designed in the worst imaginable way from basically all perspectives and are one reason for the increasing stagnation we see since their implementation. But CCP will keep closing eyes and ears, because most of the changes this system needs would create a river of tears and rage from all the bigger blobgroups who benefit from this crap design.

[Von_Baron_Crimstofrson]

@Syzygium

Thats why you won’t see a change any time soon. Citadels are designed in the worst imaginable way from basically all perspectives and are one reason for the increasing stagnation we see since their implementation. But CCP will keep closing eyes and ears, because most of the changes this system needs would create a river of tears and rage from all the bigger blobgroups who benefit from this crap design.

That is the other interesting take on changes like this: the political aspect.

I wonder if there is a way, if any, to change this? Surely these big blob groups know that a design like what we have currently isn’t healthy for the game. What’s not healthy for the game isn’t healthy for daily play count, which in turn, isn’t healthy for the big blob alliances as they slowly decline in active memberships. War and conflict is good for business, especially in EVE. So I guess the big blobs need to choose: more comfort or more players.

If you look at the login data, every time there’s a big war, player count goes up. When things are peaceful and comfortable, people lose interest. Changing the housing mechanics, specifically citadels, I think would significantly shake things up, which would bring players back, which would benefit the big blob alliances.