Who is this directed at… me or the other guy?
I’m not saying anyone is ‘soloing,’ I’m just saying the apples to apples comparison is a solo to solo comparison, so that’s the comparison we must use. Whether anyone actually does that in real life or not is immaterial.
Isk/site is important in determining how much isk you make, because it depends on your fit as to how fast youd be able to run a site.
Ive been on both sides, both farming in WHs and farming in null, so i know how it is. You clearly have no clue, which is why im telling you.
This is proof that you dont read what i wrote.
I specifically added, and ill quote myself:
No one is going to rat in a supercarrier without this. Are you kidding me? How else are you going to move your super around?
We are talking about dual boxing. Only an idiot would rat in a super without any support or any ability to move their ship around, which means that they necessarily need a second account with a cyno, both omega status, in order to rat in a supercarrier.
Please, read what i wrote. Stop ignoring the actual, physical words that are typed out on your screen.
I never denied it is important in determining how much ISK you make. Of course it is important in determining how much ISK you make. Quit stating the obvious! But it still isn’t an apples to apples comparison, so I’m throwing it out the window. Either start talking about ISK/hour, or we can conclude this conversation because it is going nowhere.
I’ve ratted 10,000 times in a nidhoggur, no cyno alt, and no ganks. No, it’s not a super, but I’d use a super the exact same way, and all the other supers ratting in my system didn’t use a cyno alt either.
Compare apples to apples. One ratter to one ratter. Two ratters to two ratters (both ships actually shooting rats). Compare ISK/hour. Etc. This is all just common sense.
I did compare ISK/Hour. Thats what the video was about. The guy made 80 million isk in 15 minutes, roughly translating to 300 mill in an hour.
So please stop dodging and address the argument at hand.
One person, in a womrhole, solo.
300 mill an hour in a setup that couldnt cost more than 2.5 billion isk.(based on the setup he shows at the beginning)
Versus.
One person in nullsec, alone.
300 mill an hour in a 16 billion isk ship.
No intel, no support ships, no one nearby.
So who is risking more.
So in other words you were with a group of other people in the system, ratting?
Then thats completely different too. If 20 of you were int he same wormhole, thats far more safe, far less risk, than being alone, multiboxing.
And youre the one who accuses me of comparing apples to oranges?
Ok, good. I stand corrected then. We are now comparing apples to apples.
I will try to replicate his results, but unless someone shows how you are wrong, since you submitted video evidence, and it is apples to apples, I will accept your claims as valid.
Sometimes other people were in the system ratting. Sometimes I was alone.
I wanted apples to apples on ISK. Which means, how much ISK/hour are you making, how many toons are you using, etc. Of course, it’s fine to add other things in too - risk or whatever. But at a minimum, I wanted to have a somewhat fair comparison of ISK/hour.
Yeah, like 4 posts ago.
Shouldnt we use other metrics as well? Like cost of ship? Isnt that pretty important too?
I just said we could. But at least I wanted a minimal starting point first.
Okay, cool.
So we have comparable numbers between solo rattle and solo supercarrier Isk/hr.
We have a huge discrepancy with cost of ship, between a 16 billion isk ship and a 2-3 billion isk ship.
5-8 times the cost of the ship, for the same amount of isk.
Is there still a bigger risk and is it that definitively worse to rat in a wormhole?
If you are correct that a solo snake in a wormhole can make comparable ISK/hour as a solo supercarrier doing nullsec anoms (someone challenge this guy if he’s wrong), then it appears they have ISK parity.
However, only for a short time. After doing the first site, the supercarrier pilot will yawn, pick his nose, take another bite of pizza, and click ‘warp to next anom.’ The snake pilot will be out of luck.
Also, I’ve ratted thousands of times in a carrier in null. I never lost a carrier, nor came close to losing a carrier, and was essentially perfectly safe. I doubt I could come close to achieving that feat ratting with a rattlesnake in a wormhole.
You will counter that an apples to apples comparison would be a wormhole with 20 buddies or whatever. I dunno. First off, if it’s a wormhole with that many people, it is also a wormhole with no sites to run. Secondly it wasn’t really the numbers of people around me in null that made me safe. Hell, half the time I ratted in the middle of the night with NO other people online in corp, or in system. Local chat is your safety. All you gotta do is be aligned to station while you are ratting. Someone shows up in local, you just mash ‘warp’ and you’re gone. In fact, you do this whether there’s 50 people ratting in system with you, or nobody - the process is the same.
To sum it up, perhaps you have ISK parity for a site, or two, or if you are lucky, three (how many of those sites can stack up?) in a wormhole. Then you’re down until sites respawn. Meanwhile the supercarrier pilot can rat until the cows come home. As far as safety parity is concerned, you have local in nullsec. You have nothing in a wormhole.
EDIT: Rattlesnake wins in cost of ship required, or ‘money on the field.’
Well, clearly youve never done any ratting in a super.
Take a look at this video.
When is the super picking his nose? If you want to make decent ticks, you need to constantly be clicking, locking, multitasking. This is why i think CCP should look into people multitasking super ratting, because i dont think its possible to use 3, 4, 5 supers at a time and get any decent isk/hour.
Cool. Dont know when this was, but today, its almost inevitable, because of the amount of blops roams these days. Take a look at delve. We lose carriers daily, even with the Supercarrier umbrella. The thing is, supercarrier umbrella will ward off capital ships, but the smaller bombers with 20-30 fleets of them are still more than capable of taking down a regular carrier. And thats with delve.
Everywhere else, youll see supers being taken down left and right.
Again, not safe. Maybe you havent ratted in a carrier in the past year or two, but its not safe at all.
Lets take the next part, one by one.
Untrue for multiple reasons.
First off, no, in wormholes, many people are usually either afk, or mining, or running gas sites. This is true in Delve, where people are on stand by and deploy when they need to to help other guys in need. Its not like there are 30 supers all ratting in the same system. Generally, there are 2-3 people in supers, maybe a couple more in carriers. And the thing is, i have alts in FAXes ready to help, which is both suggested by some and claimed as necessary by others when using supers and mining in rorquals.
So no, you can have 10 people in the same wormhole running different sites without them overlapping.
Secondly, the same goes for Wormholes. You are almost always instructed to get an alt or two that is there and ready to scan, ready to check other wormholes and roll when needed.
But id like to ask you, have you ever been in an actual wormhole group? Cause ive been in 4 so far, and in all of them, the first advice, the first requirement that the CEO sends out to everyone, is to have 1 or 2 alts that are just scanner alts. You seem to be completely disconnected with how wormhole corps run their corporations.
We have cloaky campers 24/7 in our systems. And yet were mostly safe. It hasnt hindered our ability to rat or mine, at all.
This alone allows me to dismiss your argument as irrelevant.
But how is this any different from a quiet wormhole? You do realize that people use Dscan to see if someone has come into their wormhole, right? You do realize there are methods to mitigate this, such as rolling holes to critical, making it so that only small amounts of people, or smaller ships can pass through, without the hole collapsing right? You do realize you can place cloaky observers at holes, right?
Both in nullsec and Wormhole space, there are ways you can mitigate the risk. As i said before, we have cloaky campers 24/7(Big shout out to BLOPSEC who camp our systems, always a good time), who can cyno and bring in 30, 40, 80 bombers, 20, 30, 40 T3s. And we have methods and do things that mitigate the chance of dying. Do people still die? Sure. But were comfortable with our method that we have relative safety when we do our thing.
What? Did you not see the video of the rattlesnake? This is why i doubt that you have been in a wormhole or nullsec corp, because i thought it would be obvious.
Take a look at the wheel at the bottom. Here, ill take a screenshot:
Do you know what those green sticks are on the outside of the shield indicators? Those are anomalies. Combat and ore sites. There are that many.
Again, its random chance, and they keep respawning, so theres a good chance that if there are enough people running them, they will respawn in your system.
What. I dont understand what you mean by this. Please clarify.
Or do you not know how much a supercarrier costs these days.
You are nitpicking and quibbling unnecessarily. I said AFTER he runs the site. Either way, it’s unimportant and doesn’t matter if he’s picking his nose or not.
It was all this year.
There’s absolutely no comparison with dscan and local, period.
All of this will seriously eat into your ISK/hour. While you are doing all of that, the supercarrier pilot is running sites.
Compare 1 ratting pilot to 1 ratting pilot.
I have a dozen alts sitting in a dozen wormholes as I write this. I log them in and scan around and find new holes every day. It’s quite easy to pull up the probe scanner and see what anoms are in each wormhole system. There’s gonna be a relatively limited amount of them in each wormhole system. If the wormhole is not active and doesn’t have a corp there running sites, the anoms will stack up, but not to the degree that you’d see in an upgraded nullsec system. And the minute you start running the anoms, they go away, and they don’t respawn instantly like they do in upgraded nullsec systems. If you are ratting there you will deplete the anoms rapidly, and then you have nothing left to run. Meanwhile, the carrier pilot will just select another anom to warp to.
The rattlesnake is cheaper than the super. So the rattlesnake ‘wins’ in that you have less ISK (less risk) on the field vs. the supercarrier.
K. Im pretty sure you can pick your nose while warping your rattlesnake to a site, too. This just seems to be completely irrelevant.
Well then you were lucky. But let me delve into this a bit more, later.
Since you never bothered to reply to the actual counter to this point, i will reiterate again.
And i really do hope you will respond this time, because it is a counter to this argument.
We have Cloaky campers 24/7 in delve.
This makes the use of local, USELESS.
USELESS.
Please explain to me how local is useful under these conditions.
Please stop ignoring vital sections of my responses.
Were talking about whether or not its necessary to secure your safety.
Guess what Super ratters, do. We also scan down and check cosmic signatures too.
But im gonna put a nail in the coffin in this argument, once and for all.
Do you agree, that you can be in a super or a carrier and die to blops or be dropped on?
Do you agree, that there is no guarantee that ratting in a wormhole will end up in your ship being destroyed?
Do you agree that you can log in to your carrier alt, and get dropped on in the first hour and lose your ship, while someone else can rat in a wormhole all day and not get killed or bothered at all?
Do you agree, that there are things that you can do, to mitigate the chances of being killed?
If your answer to any of them was no, then please tell me which one you said no to.
Otherwise, if your answer to all them was yes, then your argument is irrelevant. Super pilots take their time to ensure their safety, too. They can choose not to, as anyone can. But they risk more if they do, and everyone around them will tell them its a bad idea.
Sure. These are optional things that we do, to ensure our safety.
Look, if you dont care about safety, you can be alone. Just like if you dont care about losing your super, you can go to a place with zero intel, away from any support, and rat all you want.
Like i said, we have cloaky blops campers 24/7. In almost every system in delve. But we can mine and rat in peace because we have a good intel system(READ: more than one pilot), a good support fleet ready to cyno in(READ: more than one pilot), and a fleet that roams delve trying to kill these guys(READ: more than one pilot).
If you want to ignore all that, then sure.
Youre in a system with your super. Theres a cloaky camper. Youre alone, no intel, no support, nothing. Whether you choose to rat or not with zero support, is up to you. Its not a given that youll die, after all.
So please, explain how it is more dangerous to rat in a wormhole with dscan, than it is to rat in nullsec with a cloaky camper?
You said “A site, or two, or if you are lucky, three”.
This is a direct quote from you.
I didnt say there was going to be an unlimited amount. But there are a lot of systems with quite a few anomalies. Far more than 3.
But you do realize that Sov Nullsec requires isk, per month, and as you said, upgrades, which costs many hundreds of millions of isk, in order for those anomalies to spawn at predictable rates?
In which case, why dont we compare, as you like to say, apples and apples? NPC nullsec. In which case, you get random spawns, across the region, and therefore, you cannot reliably warp to havens or sanctums, i.e. the higher combat anomalies that get you the 300 mill per isk.
So, problem solved. Your argument and the point you make, is now completely irrelevant.
Okay, i guess. Thats kind of a wierd way to say it, since we are discussing whether Wormhole is worse than nullsec, and youre arguing that it is. But im okay with this.
The original point was that the wormhole rattlesnake pilot is out of anoms to run. The nullsec carrier pilot isn’t. He just takes another bite of pizza, picks his nose, flicks a booger, and clicks ‘warp to next site.’ And before you make a big production out of it again (are you a native english speaker?), the point of mentioning pizza, nosepicking, etc. is just to say the carrier pilot doesn’t care, he isn’t stressed, he has no worry, and he has no difficulty or work to do. He’s casual.
Fine. In every nullsec corp I’ve been in, and that’s been a few, the policy is dock-up if there are cloaky campers. In fact one corp shut down because we were cloaky camped 24/7 for like a month straight and nobody could do anything, so everyone left and went to a different corp and the corp was disbanded, and others moved in to take the space.
Not everybody is goons with the resources they have, the standing fleets they have, etc. Most nullseccers consider local to be mandatory. If you don’t believe me, suggest removing it and see what kind of outcry you get.
It can’t be that useless because at the very least it informs you that there’s cloaky campers.
You still have to factor in the effort and time necessary to secure safety as carrier pilot in null vs. securing it as a snake pilot in a hole. As a carrier pilot in null, I secured my safety by glancing over at local. Neut/enemy in system? Dock-up. All clear? Just warp to next site (over 90% of the time, it was ‘just warp to next site’). Now compare this to what you said needs to be done as a snake pilot in a hole. One guy is spending more time ratting, and one guy is spending more time securing safety.
There’s very little point here. As soon as you login to Eve, there’s some level of risk. Everyone knows that. The question is, how much risk, what are the odds of X happening, and how much time/effort/ISK do you have to expend to try and mitigate X from happening? While carrier ratting in nullsec, I simply glanced over to local, and that was it. As a snake pilot, you’ve described far more in terms of time and effort.
Let’s try this again. I’ve been through thousands of wormhole systems. I’ve never seen a number of anomalies stacked up in any wormhole that would sustain the level of ratting I did in nullsec. In an upgraded nullsec system, it’s infinite. It’s nothing to worry about. Run a site and despawn it? Another site spawns instantly to take it’s place. So you just warp to next site. You can sit there all day ratting, literally. Wormholes don’t work that way. Once you go through whatever limited number of combat anoms there are, it’s done. You’ll have to wait a week or whatever for them to start slowly spawning back.
Tax, on the order of 10%, was included in any ratting numbers I discussed. In other words, I got roughly 100mil ISK/hour (more if I was motivated) ratting in null in a generic carrier. That was after tax. So, the cost you describe above is already factored into our comparison.
I thought my last 2 sentences was enough to dismiss this, but judging by your entire paragraph-worth of a response, it wasnt. And youre accusing me of making a big “production” out of it?
Yeah, right.
Sure.
So you either have a lot, and require a lot of support and backup(Read: More than one player), and keep playing safely, or you ignore safety in exchange for risk.
Thanks for proving my point.
And i guess its impossible to be in a wormhole, always expecting to be ganked?
Im gonna combine these two together, because its the same response for both.
This is why i said you know very little about actual nullsec ratting. You were lucky. You were in an irrelevant corp in a irrelevant section of space during a quiet time.
In order to fit it for pure ratting, you need to be in an alliance that has a good INTEL channel, I cannot stress this enough, make sure the space is safe before you undock your expensive ratting carrier.
https://eveonlineiskguide.com/carrier-ratting/
First and foremost, always keep an eye on the intel channel. Carriers align and warp very slowly. Simply put, if you are caught, you will likely die. Carrier ratting should only be attempted deep in friendly space with a solid intelligence network.
Would you like me to ask people who rat in nullsec, as to how important intel networks and cyno alts are? Do you want me to ask people who use supers, that question? What do you think the response would be?
So before, it was “How many are you going to see? 1? 2? 3?”
Now youre comparing it to “Sit there all day ratting, literally”.
Very dishonest on your part.
But lets go back to my previous post, which you seemed to have missed, and compare apples to apples again.
NPC nullsec. Its the best apples to apples comparison to Wormhole, because you have no sov, and anomalies do not spawn like Sov nullsec.
So, whats your response?
If you keep being dishonest, im going to stop being so nice and start comparing apples to apples.
Sov costs 180 million isk a month. How much does it cost to rat in a wormhole again?
Sov holdings, require an alliance, which costs 1 billion isk to create. How much does a corp cost to create, again? Oh silly me, you dont even need to be in a corp in order to rat in a wormhole.
So again, if you want to compare apples to apples, lets compare NPC null to wormholes.
Except that wasn’t the point. At this point I’ve come to the conclusion that you are unable to get points, so I hardly see how me spelling it out to you once again will help.
Why would I want you to do that? I rat in nullsec, so I don’t need you to ask anyone for me about ratting in nullsec.
I’ve determined that you either have insurmountable reading comprehension issues, or you are a troll. Either way, it means we are done here, so I bid you good day.
Ill put this as easily as i can.
The point is that, you keep saying its “One ratting character vs One ratting character”, when its not that simple.
To be in Sov Nullsec ratting in a super, you need:
An alliance(1 bill to create).
Alliance grinding the sov to gain it in the first place(could be well over a months dedication).
Paying monthly bill(180 mill).
Paying upgrades(hundreds of billions).
Ability to purchase, or build your own Super(16 billion, or 10 bill plus material fee).
Tower or Keepstar to park your super(Another couple hundred mill a month in fuel or 100-300 bill in citadel costs).
Defending your Sov.
Its not simply a matter of “One ratting character” doing all this, which is very costly, or very difficult to do.
What do you need to Rat in Wormhole?
A single ratting character. Thats it.
Is it potentially more dangerous in Wormhole?
Sure. I never contested this.
But thats it. Thats all the Ratter in a wormhole has to contend with. Its easier, takes less time, takes less isk, risks less isk, to be in a wormhole.
The fact that you dont understand this, shows im right. You have no idea how actual nullsec works. You just joined a corp, and said “Wow, i get all these benefits by being in this corp, with zero effort required on behalf of myself, therefore its easy. Wormhole is harder and not worth it”.
All other people will see, is that you turned tail and ran. But bye.
I like how you decided to run when i brought up the NPC null comparison. That was pretty much the end of your argument, heh.
If you think that the billions of nullsec alliance infrastructure should be counted in the comparison, then that’s where the disagreement is (or, that’s where ‘a’ disagreement is).
I am comparing a single dude in a sov-holding null entity to a single dude in a wormhole. As a single dude in this sov-holding null entitiy, I don’t have to spend billions on infrastructure. I just accept invite to corp, and pay my taxes, normally on the order of 10% - 12%. That’s it. And as I said earlier, I factored these taxes into my ISK/hour when making comparisons.
To me it makes no sense to factor in all the other stuff you want factored in, because I don’t have to pay for any of it or contend with it. It can just be transparent to me. As a single dude I have two choices - accept corp invite and rat ‘over here’ (and pay taxes), or jump in a wormhole and rat ‘over there.’
Now, if you don’t see it that way, or don’t agree, that’s fine I guess. Opinions are like buttholes. Everybody has one. My comparison is the one I laid out. You apparently beg to differ, and have a different comparison.
Thats why i said you have no idea how it is to live in nullsec. You dont care, you want to ignore everything else about it, and just want use the space youre in. You have zero appreciation for everything that allows you to rat in nullsec.
Zero appreciation for the Diplos, FCs, who keep your space safe.
Zero appreciation for the Intel channels that warn people of impending enemy fleets.
Zero appreciation for the money spent, time spent to secure that space.
Everything that weve built, we build for everyone to enjoy. Whether you care or not, whether you appreciate it or not, doesnt change this fact. Ignoring this, doesnt dismiss it.
You take everything your alliance built, for granted.
Its your opinion, but its something countered by the actual facts. Facts about your corp, your alliance, and the time and ISK it took for them to build the space you now enjoy.
It isn’t about appreciation of anything. Appreciation has nothing to do with it. It’s about the comparison one makes. I’m not comparing an alliance to a single dude. I’m comparing a single dude to a single dude. I’m comparing the choice a single dude can make.
A single dude has two buttons in front of him. He can press button A, and be ratting in nullsec, paying X amount in taxes, and making Y isk/hour. He can press button B, and be ratting in a wormhole, making Z isk/hour.
The choice I laid out is the relevant choice that matters for 99% of the player population. The choice you laid out might apply to The Mittani or a couple of other dudes, but no one else.
So why not compare it fairly, then.
You can be in a wormhole group which has the infastructure to place scouts on exits. To provide help when needed. You can still be a single player on a single toon, but have other people in your corp, mine while you rat, or provide help and cover when needed, but otherwise stay cloaked.
Wouldnt that nearly gauruntee safety? Even though youre alone, and on one single character? Let everyone else in your corp or alliance, have the scouts and intel and scanning?
