Why I believe Wormholes need some love


(Helyss Mezana) #1

After living a life in Wormhole Space for several months and looking back something just doesn’t feel right. Wormholes have always been something I was interested in, but if I am honest they just don’t feel very rewarding.

Say, you run Relic and Data sites in Wormhole space and collect some goodies on your way, always in danger of getting killed by a cloaky ship sneaking up behind you, unloaking in your face. You may make around 200 Million ISK in a few hours and are happy that you did not get killed, but why would you take that risk? NullSec gives you similar results if we are honest and it is easier finding Relic and Data Sites in NullSec that you can do in a T1 Scanning frig without risk too. So by joining a big Null alliance you avoid alot of the risk of getting killed by having a local, intel and blues around you to support if needed which leads me to the conclusion that it is plain unfair to reward those more who take less of a risk. Now you may argue that you can find better Ghost Sites and Sleeper Caches in Wormhole Space then in Null, but they are so rare they barely make a difference. A similar thing can be said about Combat sites aswell. You usually risk alot more in Wormhole Space ratting away having no idea of people that could be close to you, without having a single indicator of someone being right next to you. So even in that sense Null is more secure while more rewarding or at least about the same.

To sum up one could say that Null is overall more rewarding or at least to a similar degree while still being somewhat safe for what you are recieving, and also throws up the question why you would even go through the trouble living in Wormhole space if you could have it easier. In my opinion Wormholes need something you’d want to come back to, something more unique that you can find nowhere else. Having something actually rewarding the risk would help alot countering that problem. That could be alot of different things, say Sleeper Cache style sites with multiple parts or puzzles involved, rewarding items that are unique to Wormhole Space. Something similar could be done to Combat Sites. Multi-part Sites for example, while taking a longer time and keeping you exposed alot longer to PvPers traveling by, that reward you with something special at the end, making it worth your time even in lower class holes.

As we are already talking about lower class holes, I honestly think that Wormholes should be more engaging to newer players. Wormholes can be very though for new players to get into, making it hard for Wormhole Corps to grow. Many Newbros just feel useless joining Wormholes with low skills, as even the lower Wormhole Classes require you to at least fly a well-fittet Cruiser or even Battlecruiser for Combat sites, which just seems so unreachable for newer players. Now you can say that they should go mining or Scanning, as it is more rewarding in Wormholes Space, but it just makes you too big of a target in the end and Null would give you similar results. So having more engaging Combat Sites for newer players would be a great idea in my opinion. Something you can complete easily in a Frigate or a Destroyer, that rewards you with good loot for the effort you have put into it, say something equivalent to a L2 or L3 security mission reward, as you put the risk out for people to find and kill you.

All of this would in my opinion be a big step into bringing people into Wormhole Space and making it more exciting to be there, no matter if they are Veterans or Newbros. All parts of Space deserve a place in New Eden, and Wormholes feel a bit left out at the moment for me. Obviously such ideas need tweaking and it is just an opninion, but I’d love to hear some opinions from others.

Thanks for taking your time reading this. o7

(Daoden) #2

While I agree WHs need some love, part of the reason people go to WH space is you can operate as a smaller group with the same income potential as null sec without the politics.

Others like myself like it because it isn’t safe, which works both ways. Hunting players in null sec is boring as hell since as you have stated, its safe. WH space is more fun to hunt in, on top of the fact that there have been several times myself and my alliance have come across recently destroyed structures that are still being looted, giving a nice opportunity for PvP since in null asset safety means nothing drops.


Probably because CCP doesn’t want you to prosper too much there by tempting people to go to null for bigger prizes…in other words they want people to interact and shoot each other, if they could they would stuff everyone into null so it could be a big ass grabbing event but people would rebel like mad.

(Zander Exvirus) #4

So a few things.

I know this may sound bad, but I dont really want new players in wormholes, for the betterment of everyone. Wormhole space is meant to be intense, full of PVP, and gives you the isk to compensate. Wormholers make much much more isk/hr then nullsec players, but at the same time nullsec is farm able, meaning that in the long run nullsec players will make much more isk.

I have lived in wormholes for about 6 months, and to make money I dread ratt. With my 1 dread, I can expect to make 600-1000 million a hour. You would assume I am rich, but im not. I am worth 20bil at the most. You cant constantly farm, and we lose a lot more ships. A new player cannot thrive here.

I think if wormholes need anything is more depth. More structures, more PVE, more stuff to do, and more danger. Watching vegas was cool, but during the structures presentation I was disappointing that none of this cool stuff could be used in wormholes. I am just worried that the more structures they add that cant be used in wormholes, the more we fall behind and we become a desolate wasteland.

Here are some Ideas:

Forward Operating bases

Wormhole Stabilizers

Drifter Incursions

Defense Towers


In wormholes we cant build massive empires simply because systems dont connect, so lets make it so your system will be you empire, and you can make it as big as you want. Maybe if CCP wants us to use jump gates, what if systems have non wormhole systems near it that can be connected for nullsec resources, so maybe you can expand out a bit.

Just ideas.

(Helyss Mezana) #5

That is my impression aswell @zander_exvirus . The reason behind why I’d like to make Wormholes more engaging in the process though is, that to keep the content coming, we need a Playerbase to enjoy it aswell. I am not saying that High Class Wormholes should be new player friendly, but having a C1 as a “beginner” Class Wormhole would help immensly.

At the moment Wormholes really lack content and it is important to keep things going to people stay in Wormholes. I feel like we are missing out on alot of things, which makes me a bit sad.

Added to that I really like the idea of Drifter Incrusions and Forward Operating bases alot. Lighter Operating bases would make for a more dynamic style of play & some interesting strategy.

Thank you for your feedback.

(Zander Exvirus) #6

These are some Ideas I posted in the past.

(Obil Que) #7

Go live in null by yourself and not in some “large nullsec alliance” and let us know how safe it is before you start comparing solo wormhole diving to nullsec ratting. The idea of “safe nullsec” is built upon the backs of a massive expenditure of infrastructure and effort by a large number of people.

(Helyss Mezana) #8

@Obil_Que I never said it is safe to life a solo live in NullSec, that is why I stated in the first place that this fact is only true while compared to a large NullSec aliance. Added to that I never compared ‘solo’ Wormhole diving with ratting in NullSec in particular.

I am very much aware of the fact that having a “safe” NullSec comes with alot of expenses, but in the end that is not the point I am trying to make, nor is it a fact I am confirming or denying.

What I am doing is simply stateing that the risk :left_right_arrow: reward factor in both Null and WH Space is not compareable, saying you put way more money on the table in (Low Class) Wormholes then you do Null for the rewards you recieve for the single player. And if you disagree to that, it is okay, but I’d like to hear more constructive feedback from you in the future.

(Helyss Mezana) #9

@Daoden While I agree to most of what you said, I think there is still something missing, even in terms of PvP.
The unsafe nature of Wormholes is great, but NullSec still attracts way more numbers then Wormholes just because it isn’t worth doing in the end. Making Wormhole Space more attractive would benefit everyone involved, those who hunt and also those who actually enjoy the PvE Content in Wormhole Space. Having a more engaging WH Space will encourage people to fight over holes & structures, hunt more activly and allows people who actually enjoy Wormholes already to find new people to fly with them.

That in the end is still just my opinion and you’d probably have to see into collected data more and test this on a small scale first.

(Ikudza Saraki) #10

I feel that low level wormholes need to be mor erewarding, so that more player daytrip there, making a content.
Nowadays, they are just desert

(Predvodnica LSG) #11

I have better idea, let PA offer systems in W-space for sale in isk, plex , whotever, and give possibilities to new owner to put ACL on WH entrances.

  • Eve will have many new subscribers
  • PA wil make lots of $$$$ very fast

(Helyss Mezana) #12

@Predvodnica_LSG Sounds like a plan! But how about we make EVE subscription based instead, that would make it easier for everyone, right?

(Isabella Loja) #13

I’m living in a Wrmhole for about 5 month now and I think that WHs need a change too.
Perhaps you can add a sepcial version of the system upgrade mechanic like it is in nullsec?
This would give corporations the opportunity to upgrade the womhole to their needs.
Need more Ore? No problem, take this upgrade.
Want more Relic/Data/Gas Sites? Take this upgrade.
Don’t have enough combat sites? Just install this.
If you only allow one upgrade per system, I think this will make womrholes a lot more interesting for corps and for daytrippers who look for wormholes with a high upgrade to farm the sites in that wormhole.

(Predvodnica LSG) #14

And with that attitude they brought themselves to the edge of bankruptcy. Great job CCP !!!

(Helyss Mezana) #15

I think that would be a great idea! That would make players actually want to take hole control and not just day trip and benefit everyone involved. Definitly something to reward Wormholers to live where they live.

(Isabella Loja) #16

Yeah, but I think you have te be very careful with such a tool, because if the upgrades will push the system to much, it would be pretty broken.

I would prefer a system (lets say a C2 with the normal C2 sites) wich could lead to the following attributes at maximum upgrade (for example 2 weeks of daily activity):

  • Industrie-Upgrade:
    3 Fix Oresites and 4 Fixed Gassites. Every downtime the number is filled up to the maximum. If there is a site wich isn’t finished it will stay the way it was before dt.
  • Science-Upgrade:
    8 Fix Data- and Relicsites. Filled up to the maximum every downtime.
  • Combat-Upgrade:
    10 Combatsites Fix. Filled up every downtime.
  • Unstable-Upgrade:
    Adds 1 random static Wormholes to the system. For example a C2 has a B274 and O477 static. It is possible for this system to get 1 extra statics from all possible C2 statics ( B274 , O477 , Z647, Y683, A239, D382, E545, N062 or R474). Perhaps with a mechanic, randomly selecting new EXTRA statics each day, but the normal system statics will stay the same. So It could be possible to have a HS and 2 C3 for a day, or a HS, C3 and C5 and so on.

This numbers will increase in higher classes and the upgrades will increase the chance of spawning new sites within its specialisation.

Oh and all these sites spawn in addition to the normal wh sites.

(Helyss Mezana) #17

Another requirement I’d say should be having hole control or hole ownership. So all Citadels/Refinerys/Engineering Complexes have to be owned by the same alliance. Otherwise this could be, like you said, too strong. The values I think could use a bit more tweaking, but as an idea this would work out great in the current game in my opinion.

(Zander Exvirus) #18

I think in order to implement this you would need a few things. First off, you cant just buff one thing without also nerfing it . I think if you add a structure that can do this, it needs to be under the flex category, it needs to be easy to kill, but also it needs to compensate the ease of living. We would need to find a way that it can hurt the wormhole too. Also, if we spice wormholes up, we could maybe add some interesting game play. Not only if we have PVE wars against drifters, but other NPC factions could roam wormholes. Since systems are locked in place like K-space, just the connections change every 24 hours, then we could have observatories that look at systems close to you of the same class (C6 is in its own region, along with all other classes, therefore you would only be able to connect to another C6) and maybe jump gates could align to other jump gates and go. Then just make it so the jump gate can be taken control of and enemies can come from your jump gate.

Also, I think instead of we getting ■■■■ moons, we get a higher class moon the higher class system you have. C5 and C6 would have all moons, C4 and down would have lower class moons, but the higher class system the better moon spawns, so for example C6 would have more R64 moons then C5 space.

Since there are no regular jump gates in wormholes, and each system can only have 1 gate, then every new system would need to be aligned too, which means empire building would be possible, just very very limited. You would still have random connections, no local, ect. I just think wormholes are cool now, but they are too limited when it comes to big battles and empires. We dont even have enough people in wormholes to create tidi and not everyone in WH space would participate in a battle so we dont need to worry about them getting too large.

I dont like supers and titans simply because they have become too common. Maybe we could bridge the gap with T2 Dreads and Carriers, and make it so you can only fit 1 through a C5 or C6 hole, and make them 3x the mass, 3x the cost, and only 2x as powerful as the T1 version.

Just some thoughts.

(Helyss Mezana) #19

I think this is going a bit too far. I believe we have to start slow and take something that is actually imagineable in the current games state, without requireing too much work.

This would also change the whole games meta and wouldn’t fit the current game mechanics in my opinion. Balancing the current content of the game in that region is already really hardI feel like, and adding more, even stronger things, would break the system completely.

(Isabella Loja) #20

Well, most of the thinks you spoke of are right. But my changes are not about “making womholes more challenging for people already living there”.
In my oppinion, the first thing to do is “making wormholes more interesting to new entities”.

I understand that many of the long time wormhole players are very frustrated, becuase wormhole space nearly seems to be ignored by creating content, patches etc. But to change that you need more players in it, more players standing up for their playstile. So getting more players in wh space should be top priority…