Wormholes: Is something missing?

Communications Center General Discussion
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I am mentally preparing myself, as well as others, that this thread will receive the backlash of others who support the opposite views.

So, without further ado, let’s jump right into it. I’ve been living in a WH for quite some time now, and things are clearly not adding up in terms of equality from our space to the null-sec side of things.

Let’s just list off my issues I have and then talk about them.

NULL-SEC offers us:

  1. A local to see who comes in and out and gives us a fighting chance to get out (most times)
  2. Asteroid Belts & Moon mining that is not restricted to just R4 goo.
  3. Provides PVE anomalies to rat for instant ISK to wallet per 20minutes
  4. Politics, not that I personally care about politics in real life, so why should I care in a video game?
  5. PVP content. Hot drops (on both sides)
  6. Relic and Data sites galore
  7. DED sites (9/10 - 10/10)

So, those are some of the things that Null has to offer, and with all that being said, intel is normally offered to keep everyone safe and sound. However let’s look into what WH’s offer and see if it matches up?

WORMHOLES: C1-C5

  1. Some WH’s offer just combat sites, while others can offer a plethora of ORE and combat.
  2. Relic sites and Data sites. But this comes at a obscene risk/reward.
  3. No Naturally spawning ORE belts.
  4. Moon Mining with the only goo that is available is R4.
  5. More WH’s than some might know what to do with.
  6. No local.
  7. No politics (Impressive)
  8. PVP content that is heart racing

So let’s now compare the two!

Null-sec provides us with safety, and if you are like me and watch intel correctly, then you should have no problems with being safe 100% of the time. Now, does that seem fair to you? Let’s put it into perspective here. If I am ratting in null-sec and see a neutral that was spotted two jumps out coming in fast, I have ample time to get out. Now though, if I am in my wormhole farming a combat site and don’t happen to spam my d-scan button for 10-15 seconds, I might have missed the guy that was gonna show up as he entered into the system.

However, the argument can be said that I should have rolled the WH and made the system blind. Well yes, but somethings are left out of our control. For, when a frigate WH appears, well I don’t do much of anything, I dock and play other games waiting for a 24 hours or until it is dead to come back online. Thus, in the time it took me to log off and back on to resume, I lost on average about a billion ISK to what I could have made in null-sec. (Rough figures)

Safety is a big concern, but I don’t want to put a heaping load of emphasis on any one topic.

Moving onwards, we have Asteroid Belts and Moon Mining!

Null-sec system have either a few or over 25 belts sometimes filled to the brim with the best ORE in the game. It also offers either a few moons, or a massive pile of moons that will have your own head spinning in orbit too. But these moons of null-sec seem to offer 60x more than what a WH moon might be able to offer.

In WH space, from what I have gathered, we are limited, yes that is the correct word you heard, limited. I don’t see how I can’t see an issue with that, because the first point made about safety is what the basis of this whole topic is about (more of less). Should I really want to stick my neck out to go mine some pathetic, non compressing moon goo that is limited to R4, while some null-sec systems offer the best moon goo in the game with the additional security measures they have? So while they can build far more than what I want to build, I am being forced into only harvesting some low life plankton? If you are thinking to yourself in this moment, “why did I enter a WH again?” might be along the same lines of a lot of us, but to be frank, screw the politics and this is why we are here. Plain and simple.

Wishing I could be in null-sec right now making obscene amounts of ISK to wallet ratios, but I wanted to try something different, and different is what I got.

PVP content can be heart pounding and exciting in null-sec but without knowing who might be lurking behind you in WH space, makes for an easy heart attack. So PVP is fun in both realms, but I would vouch for the WH’s having a more epic time with PVP and personally less argument than someone losing their HEL in null-sec and crying about how no one helped them.

Working together in Null-sec is really only viable when you are told you need to PAP, or CTA and thus things get done either you win, lose, and or just not do anything at all and have to fly 50+ jumps back home for nothing.

“Why are you writing this, you are frustrated about something that WH’s don’t have, so just get on with it already” is more than likely what you might be thinking, but writing this is a process in itself.

I am frustrated with the fact that WH’s are far more deadly than what meets the eye. For example, I could can a Relic site down, and a Data site in null-sec and run them without having any issues of rats. I could do the same thing and get a faction relic or data, which provides loot and no NPC’s to kill. Or, I could get the non faction one and have to bring an army to kill the near half a million EHP that lies within those sites. While a regular WH combat site could range from 25k EHP to a few hundred thousand EHP. While yes, I would like to do them myself, it’s not like a null-sec haven I can run in 15 minutes in a Thanatos and watch myself make 30-50mil per 20m as apposed to trying to solo a WH combat site to make maybe a cleared site in half an hour or more to then loot and salvage? Why should I take less risk and get more reward, as opposed to more risk and less reward?

Personally speaking though, I am an industrialist, I have yet to even run a WH combat site. But the main frustration lies in how unbalanced mining can be in WH space. For everything stated above, the limitations have me so wound up due to how much a b-slap I’ve taken to understand this.

Does it feel right that we have less security and safety and are given less than those with more security and numbers? The numbers simply don’t add up, as well as the common sense factor has clearly been override.

Whew, that was a mouthful, and if I repeated myself, which I am sure I did, sorry but I’d rather re-read after this is posted to figure out what the hell I have said.

For those of you who may or may disagree, please post constructive criticism, and not just some banter, but we all know it will still come. Thank you for taking the time to read this, and I hope to hear from you soon.

-REVOLVING

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I can see where you’re coming from, and it’s why I don’t do WHs anymore. I always felt that the explo sites were just needlessly dangerous compared to their NS counterparts, which are about the same loot-wise.

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I’ll insert my standard response here that null-sec isn’t naturally safer outside of local.

It is made safer by the organizations that live there. If you took the same effort as those organizations to make your wormhole safer, you too would enjoy maximum benefits that your system has to offer. Yes, there are still differences but I have to resist the general assumption that null-sec is safer “just because” that seems to ignore the amount of effort those groups put into making it so via people in space and tools.

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Well first of all, nowhere is more safe then a wormhole. Nowhere. Its the only place in eve you can effectively close down a system and stay “alone” in the game, for hours and hours on end.
Yes theres a chance of a new wormhole spawning and yes theres a chance of statics spawning after some hours, but those hole can be closed in 1 min, by 4-5 ships.
Not to mentions, you can easily rat 500m+ an hours in wormholes (for way less then a super costs, 1-2b investment), it just takes more prep then undocking your super and mindlessly warping to sites with beacons.

Im not really sure what you are trying to say, wormhole life is vastly different then any nullsec life and it should be like that. Theres no reason it is the same, because people dont come there for the same things.
The rewards are crappy if you are solo, but its like that anywhere you go in eve. Teamplay is highly encourages and makes so much sense in an enviroment where you need to rely on actual people intel, and not a chat bot.

As far as moons, i agree somewhat that it sucks we only get crappy moon goo. On the other hand, if you had crazy moon goo, whats to stop people from farming the ■■■■ out of wormholes? You cant evict people with multible keepstars, mega dread fleet and 2-400 people on standby, in a wormhole, due to mass limitations and hole control.

FYI ive lived in wormholes for many years, so i might not be that objective hehe.

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The thing about eve is when you compare these two space types and the people that live there, the most important thing is gates. I live in wormholes, and I love how there is a new enemy every day, new connections, stuff like that. I dont like local in wormholes.

I think if we want to improve wormholes, give us R64 moons, and make a use for gates that does not remove the feeling of risk and randomness with wormholes.

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At the end of the day, while you listed a number of grievances, you seem to circle back to mining in wormholes. If I’m not mistaken, wormholes might not offer the best mining opportunities for rocks but they do offer some of the best gas harvesting available in the game. It’s a trade off, and I think wormhole space is all about trade offs.

Think about it. You trade having consistent neighbours and local that you could have in null sec for the randomness that is wormhole space. You could end up connected to a bunch of inactive systems today and be free to do whatever you want with no one around to interrupt you, or you could wake up and find out you’re right next door to one of the active wormhole PVP corporations. You could work on any number of sites and not be bothered at all, or find out that someone has spent the last few hours sitting around hoping that someone would come run this particular site.

So you ask, why bother if you could have it easier elsewhere? I think there are quite a few people who like the randomness that comes with living in a wormhole, the unpredictability of day to day life. If you like the consistency of income and quality of life you get by running a Thanatos in sites in null sec, then that’s an option available to you. If you have some friends, or in some sites just an optimized ship solo, you can clear out the sleepers in those exploration sites and enjoy the bounty that comes from that.

Anyway, just a few ideas to think about and drive further discussion. :slight_smile:

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I will be at work for a bit (6PM EST), but thank you for those who have responded thus far. I am eager to reply and sorta edit down my key points I want to further address.

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Yes, it does.

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I have a problem with this plan; it’s missing a tl;dr

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I didn’t read the whole post, but I really hope ccp doesn’t take this thread seriously. I don’t want null sec and null sec lite. I want null sec and wormholes.

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The reasons you’ve gone into wh’s seem to be the wrong ones.

Ask what other worm hole residents like about wh’s and they’ll probably tell you they love the fact that there is no local (When i lived in wh space that was definitely my favourite part of it). They enjoy that they have to haul goods out of their hole to turn it into isk, cause it also means they can attack other peoples haulers or site runners and get a nice pay day.

Many worm hole players rejected the idea of asset safety when it was first proposed.

Some say wh space is the least broken area of the game.

So if it’s not your cup of tea, that’s ok.

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IC1-C4’s need their loot table dramatically buffed for relics, data’s, and combat anoms. Way too much isk on the field for the reward. Also, site spawns need to be happen far more frequently.

Lower class WH’s are great for pvp but compared to NS, garbage for PVE. Risk should come with reward.

Here’s the other thing about WH’s. They take time to prep when it comes to PVE. You can make 200 mil an hour in a C3 but you’ll spend an hour scanning and rolling most days before you touch a site. There are cheap ways to clear C3 sites but you either needs multiple toons or you’ll do them slow. Both ways cut into your isk per hour mark.
C1’s should net 20-25 mil a combat anom
C2’s 35-40 mil
C3’s 65-70 mil
C4’s 120-125
Sleeper data and relics should pay out 1.8 times the respective holes isk.

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Wormhole relic sites should be at least as valuable as Null sec sites.

Saying people need to live in Null sec to do Null sec relic sites is blatantly false. Get yourself a sub 2 second align time interceptor that is of course immune to bubbles and do relic sites in anyones space that doesn’t have anyone in local. Sure they can “try” to stop you but as long as you have a cloak attached you can waste way more peoples time than they can ever do anything to you.

Problems in Null? go afk for a while
Problems in Wormholes? You probably wont see it coming

It makes no sense for Null to be so much more buffed than wormholes, its actually almost backwards, and seems to be done to appease the masses then to be a realistic reward for actual risk taken.

But please don’t tell me “you made it safe by being there”, because you wouldn’t be able to catch me anyways and in a wormhole I wouldn’t see you AT ALL.

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I feel generous today. Let’s support adding Intel channel to WH?

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The answer is not making wormholes safer.

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No. Go away.

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WH space offers us:
1 - No local, so you can hunt at your heart’s content
2 - The best gas sites to mine
3 - Haulers carrying blue loot to shoot
4 - Politics, but on a smaller scale than null
5 - PvP content, with no hot drops, and limited capital fights (max 3 will fit through a very large WH)
6 - Relic and Data sites galore
7 - Access to low/null for DED sites, but who cares about those when you can shoot…
8 - Drifters

I know which I prefer.

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While I agree to you in the sense of ISK, reward, with a small group you can basically seal off the system.

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I’ve spent the last few years living in a WH.
I can tell you I’m probably never leaving.

I love the PVP so much more than LS/NS. It’s like Submarine or Ninja warfare. Everything is happening in perfect stealth until BAM things blow up and epic fights happen.

Could the ORE sites be better? yeah
Could there be better sites (like DID 4/5/6 etc) to run. sure.
I’ll even argue that some small changes would be very nice (Like being able to jump clone into a WH!, or Data sites that actually paid out something!)
But I still feel like J space is best space (especially if you have an amazing Corp/Alliance behind you)

So would I like to see some changes made to J space? yeah, I could stand for a few.
But honestly I’d say don’t mess with something that isn’t really broken.
my .02

Also CCP class 7 Wh anytime soon?

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That doesn’t mean there isn’t tackle cloaked in stystem. It’s a pretty common tactic to slip a ship into a known ratting and sneak in and log off dps ships when the corp is off line. Then log on sporadically and see if they are ratting.