Concept: possible secondary lines of T2 hulls for certain classes


(Villiam Kaardanen) #1

not looking for implementation, rather, just food for thought. i was looking at checking on the specs of the Widow to see how much i could take out of it once Omega. and noticed that some T2 specializations only have 1 hull doing all the work whereas others have 2 ships each one with a specific thing.

so i went to make a revision of those classes that are missing a second line of ships, here’s what i came up currently:

1. Covert Ops:

for some reason i cannot grasp bombers and the actual covert ops frigates are grouped on the same basket. a pretty weird group so i’ve considered something, putting Bombers into their own specialization skill (and their own changes). Covert Ops frigates get divided into 2 hulls each one, one dedicated to scouting and the other for ambushing. these are the changes along with the new hulls:

-Exploration Covert Ops:

Anathema, Buzzard, Cheetah, Helios

Racial bonus per lvl is the same as their T1 version, Covert Ops bonus per lvl doesnt give bonus to combat probes but has bigger bonuses to regular and survey probes, Role bonus gets an extra +5 (or maybe 10) to the current +10 virus strength

-Combat Covert Ops (New):

Emissary, Nightjar, Cougar, Selene

Racial bonus per lvl gives 10% damage and 5% rate of fire, Covert Ops bonus per lvl gives 20% bonus to combat probes and not bonus to regular or survey probes, Role bonus gives a 100% damage bonus instead of virus strength bonus

both roles have the same stealth bonuses as they currently are, no changes were made there.

2. Stealth Bombers:

Bombers have their own thing going on so there’s no point on giving them extra roles. however, the torpedo and bomb bonuses could be separated in order to give a difference between torpedo bombers and actual bombers.

-Torpedo Bombers:

Purifier, Manticore, Hound, Nemesis

Racial bonus per lvl is the same, Covert Ops bonus changes the bomb bonus into a rate of fire bonus for torpedo launchers, Role bonus is the same as always

-True Bombers (New):

Condemner, Tarasque, Fox, Alecto

Racial bonus changes to Bomb explosion velocity and flight time along with bomb max velocity, Covert Ops bonus per lvl swaps Torpedo damage for Bomb damage and the current 5% bonus to Bomb damage becomes a rate of fire bonus for Bomb Launcher, Role bonus still the same.

specific damage type focus is still present in the Covert Ops bonuses, that emphasis wasnt changed.

3. Electronic Attack Frigates:

there’s something going on with these and their Recon relatives but they seems overloaded with roles which are mostly the same when they could each one reflect their respective faction EWAR doctrines. Navy versions of these are already combat focused so in order to not ■■■■ on them i just separate them into specific EWAR bonuses.

-Sentinel:

Amarr bonus per lvl -> same as the Crucifier
Electronic Attack bonus per lvl -> 80% optimal and 40% falloff for weapon/guidance disruptors, capacitor bonus unchanged

-Watcher (New):

Amar bonus per lvl -> same as the current Sentinel but weapon disruption bonus changes to reduction in capacitor need for energy neuts and vamps
Electronic Attack bouns per lvl -> same as the current Sentinel as it was already cap warfare related

-Kitsune: no changes done, as its focused on Targetted ECM already

-Tanuki (New):

Caldari bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to ECM Burst strength, 20% bonus ECM burst range
Electronic Attack bonus per lvl -> 15% reduction in ECM burst capacitor need, 5% bonus to capacitor capacity

basically the idea is that the Kitsune is the Targeted ECM version while the Tanuki focuses on burst jammer modules, something that no small ship can do anymore (as burst jammers became a Battleship specialty), Target Breakers could be a possibility but im not sure on the bonus for this one yet.

-Keres:

Gallente bonus per lvl -> unchanged
Electronic Attack bonus per lvl -> warp disruption range and activation cost bonuses swapped to Remote Sensor Damp range and activation cost bonuses

-Atropos(New):

Gallente bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to small hibrid turret damage, 7,5% bonus to small hibrid turret tracking speed
Electronic Attack bonus per lvl -> same as the current Keres

the Maulus Navy and the Mordus legion hulls already capitalize on warp disruption bonuses so i needed something to replace the gallente bonuses. for this case in particular, the Atropos is a blaster/rail focused EWAR with range and cap bonuses for scrams and long points.

-Hyena:

Minmatar bonus per lvl -> unchanged
Electronic Attack bonus per lvl -> Stasis Webifier range swapped to Target Painter range

-Aardwolf (New):

Minmatar bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to small projectile turret optimal range, 7,5% bonus to small projectile turret tracking speed
Electronic Attack bonus per lvl -> same as the current Hyena

the Aardwolf falls in the same issue as the Atropos, its web bonuses come into issues with other hulls (mostly Serpentis and Blood Raider) so in order to not go into the extreme with it i converted it into a long range gunboat platform with a web bonus which doesnt come into conflict with the Navy Vigil as that one is missile focused.

4. Black Ops:

this one is tricky thing, Black Ops are pendant for a rebalance so im not sure what is CCP gonna come up with. IMO they should be treated in a way similar to Recons or my concept for Covert Ops. where there’s one Black Ops battleship focused on the Cyno work much like the current iteration, while there’s also a Combat focused one that strip all of that in favour of being able to use a proper covert ops cloaking device (the so wanted stealth warping battleship).

-Portal Black Ops:

Redeemer, Widow, Panther, Sin

they are the same Black Ops we are use to know. nothing changed here so far.

-Solo Black Ops (New):

these black ops are designed around solo hunting, they use the tier 2 battleship models (Apocalypse, Raven, Tempest and Megathron) and thus are bonused to use covert op cloaking devices instead of sporting covert jump portal capabilities or a jumpdrive.

  1. Custode:

Amarr bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret damage, 5% bonus to Large Energy Turret activation cost
Black Ops bonus per lvl -> same max velocity bonus of all black ops, 7,5% bonus to Large Energy Turret tracking speed

  1. Albatross:

Caldari bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Rapid Heavy, Torpedo and Cruise missile Damage, 5% bonus to Rapid Heavy, Torpedo and Cruiser missile launcher rate of fire
Black Ops bonus per lvl -> same max velocity bonus of all black ops, 7,5% bonus to Rapid Heavy, Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion velocity

  1. Svardstav:

Minmatar bonus per lvl -> 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage, 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret rate of fire
Black Ops bonus per lvl -> same max velocity bonuses of all black ops, 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret optimal and falloff

  1. Shamash:

Gallente bonus per lvl -> 5% bonus to Large hybrid Turret damage, 7,5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Black Ops bonus per lvl -> same max velocity bonus of all black ops, 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range and faloff

with this i conclude the OP. there’s still some T2 specializations to tackle like Command Destroyers, Dictors, Hictors, Logistics and Marauders but i dont want to make this more extense than what it already is. so im going to leave those out.


(Luigi mon-de-sound) #2

I must say, you proposal is interesting and it is noticable that you’ve bit some thought into it. I can agree with some of your ideas thou I will say some of them are unnecessary.

  1. Bombers - I think that bombers are fine as they stand, that said I do believe that adding a “heavy” Bomber could help counter the ever so prominent capital/super proliferation.
    Example. ( Heavy bomber concept)
    Corax hull.
    8 H, 5 M, 3L
    5 missile slots
    Role bonuses,
    can fit 2 bomb launchers,
    Reduction to bomb launcher and torpedo CPU/PG fitting requirements
    No targeting delay from decloaking
    Can equip covert ops cloak
    50% bonus to light missile and rocket damage.

Caldari destroyer per lvl
10% bonus explosion velocity and flight time
20% bonus to rocket, light missile, and torpedo max velocity

Cov ops bonus
5% kinetic bomb damage
15% to torpedo damage

In theory, these bombers should be able too defend themselves better than the current ones. Like the current bombers, it should be able to fit 3 torpedo launchers with the remaining 2 high slots for LM or rockets so that it can defend itself from t1 frigs and ward off t2.


(Villiam Kaardanen) #3

well T2 is supposedly about specialized hulls that do an specific thing while being weak in something else. but as it currently stand, it seems many of these hulls are overloaded with stuff instead of focusing on an specific part of their “main fantasy”.

such is the example of the non-Bomber covert ops. they are T2 exploration hulls with covert capabilities, but they also get a combat bonus when they are basically used for scouting, cyno work, and hacking. there’s no point on having combat bonuses on a ship like that when the Astero exists. so the only feasible option for those is to have 2 hulls instead, one that is specialized on solo hunting with combat probes and another that is focused on exploratory work with better hacking and surveying with regular probes.

Bombers do it fine for now and i dont see the need of a Heavy Bomber because the main fantasy of those hulls is that they carry heavy payloads to hunt large targets (battleships and up) or use their boms against groups of subcaps. however, Torpedoes are the only single target weapon they have so i can totally see a division where there’s a bomber specialized on torpedo bonuses and another that is all about bombs.

i dont think adding destroyer sized bombers are a good idea, mostly because that wouldnt help with the capita/supercap proliferation, it would bring some issues for subcap pilots (3 bombs at once when it can be a full fleet of them would wreck almost everything, its too much power).


(Villiam Kaardanen) #4

here’s a revision of another T2 class

  1. Marauders:

this class has been on discussion several times. i like that some people use them for PvP and they have a special gimmick of their own which is the Bastion Module use. however, their fantasy of “long deployment behind enemy lines” doesnt work at all, a BLOPs can do it because despite being weaker on tank it can go covert (despite the lack of Covert Ops Cloak). the Marauder can only go full siege and hope people doesnt throw a massive fleet on him.

leaving this class for PvE solely hurts my heart too. and i dont really see the use of the tractor beam bonuses when people can just get a Noctis alt or use an MTU. so the only feasible way i can think for these ships to actually fulfill the fantasy of what a “Marauding” ship is supposed to do they have to become into something akin to a capital ship while still restricted to a battleship size.

Blops can give covert bridge to people and stealth themselves without issues so i dont see any conflict on giving Marauders the capability of moving around on enemy territory by having their own jumpdrive. in addition they are separated into 2 specialized hulls.

-General Changes proposed:

-2 highs, +1 mid +1 low for all current Marauders
they get a Jumpdrive and the required fuel bay acommodations
Tractor Beam bonus gets replaced with a fuel consumption reduction or jump fatigue reduction (taking in account the whole point of Marauders is staying for long periods deployed on enemy territory, i would go with the former but ehhh, it can be something related)

there’s now 2 types of Marauders, both of them can jump around but each one is focused on a specific strat.

-Siege Marauders:

Paladin, Golem, Vargur, Kronos

in addition to the changes above, their racial bonus gives rate of fire and damage application, their Marauder bonus adds them extra resistances along with reduced capacitor consumption for local rep modules, their role bonus gets a 50% (or more) reduction in Bastion Module cycle time.

the main idea of the Siege Marauder is that it gets extra extra tanky and has better application at close ranges, apart of that it gets shorter cycles on their bastion modules so they can cancel siege early in order to GTFO if things get ugly.

-Microjump Marauders (new):

Microjump Marauders are different from their Siege brethern in that they get bonuses for range and as such they are also bonused with a MJD bonus along with higher targetting so they can move to extreme ranges in order to evade enemy fire. they dont get tanky so using a Bastion module on them would be a last resort instead of a main strat for them.

they are based on the tier3 battleship models (Abaddon, Rokh, Maelstrom, Hyperion) with the following bonuses:

  1. Warlock:

Amarr bonus per lvl -> 5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise missile rate of fire, 10% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile damage
Marauder bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile flight time, 10% reduction to Torpedo and Cruise Missile explosion radius
Role bonus -> general marauder bonuses, 70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay, 100% bonus to MJD distance

  1. Garuda:

Caldari bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage, 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire
Marauder bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret falloff, 10% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret optimal range
Role bonus -> general marauder bonuses, 70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay, 100% bonus to MJD distance

  1. Halberd:

Minmatar bonus per lvl -> 5% bonus to Large Projectile Turret damage, 5% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise Missile damage
Marauder bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Large Projectile optimal range, 10% bonus to Torpedo and Cruise missile max velocity
Role Bonus -> general marauder bonuses, 70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay, 100% bonus to MJD distance

  1. Anu:

Gallente bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Drone damage and hitpoints, 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret rate of fire
Marauder bonus per lvl -> 10% bonus to Heavy and Sentry Drone optimal range, 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed
Role bonus -> general marauder bonuses, 70% reduction in MJD reactivation delay, 100% bonus to MJD distance

Notes: i wanted to come up with something different for the second line of Marauder hulls so i went for a different approach on each one compared to the current marauders (Khanid missiles for Amarr, Caldari gunships, Minmatar versatility in weaponry, Gallente drones and turrets approach).

some of those may not look good but it was a way to include something else on the mix. so i’ll take any critic on those in order to formulate something else.


(Luigi mon-de-sound) #5

Marauders, in my opinion are in a great place. Those high slots you want to remove are used for neuts and nos in pvp fits. The reason people don’t take the out is due to the fact that they cost as much as a dread but without the insurance payout. (A problem that all t2 ships have)

I was going to add more in my first response but was sleepy so I’ll continue.

While I can’t vouch for mim/gal ewar frigs, but creating a new ship for Cal/ amarr is unnecessary. The Sentinel is in a great place with neuts, weapon disrupters, and drones (maybe buff drone bay??)

The kitsune thou… The problem it has is a systematic problem that all Caldari ewar ships have, that jams and shield tank both fit in mid slot.

Most fleet fits that I see are armor buffer with ewar rigs to compensate for lack of the signal distortion amps in the low. What I would suggest to counter this isfor all Caldari ewar ships add the following. (Feel free to flame me for this)

  1. T2 Role bonus. 200% bonus to shield extenders
    50% reduction to signature penalties due to shield modules.
  2. T1 Role bound. 125% bonus to shield extenders
    25% reduction to signature penalties due to shield extenders.
    I also would add +1 mid to the kitsune and recon ships.

Back to the kitsune.
I get that you want a brawling jamming frig that isn’t the Navy Griff, problem is that it has 3 unbonused highs and no drone bay, add the fact that targeted ECM takes up mid slots which force you to armor tank with 2 lows, and burst jammers cycle to longer which make them ineffective in frig fights.
Solution.
Kitsune
Traits:
Electronic Attack Ships bonuses (per skill level):
15% bonus to ECM Target Jammer optimal range
5% bonus to ship capacitor capacity

Caldari Frigate bonuses (per skill level):
20% bonus to ECM Target Jammer and ECM Burst Jammer strength
10% reduction in ECM Target Jammer and ECM Burst Jammer activation cost

Role bonus
200% to shield extenders
50% reduction to signature penalties to shield modules
75% Reduction to ECM Burst Jammer cycle time

Slot layout
4 H, 3 turrets, 3 missile hp
6 mid
2 low
+50 CPU
+10 PG
45 m3 drone bay
15m3 bandwidth

A second class of Black ops have been asked and debated for sometime now, however I think that they should stay on the same hull as now.
The bonues that they would have would be similar to that of combat recon ships as ingame lore said that Battleships are to large to use covert ops cloak. To make up for that, they should have high sensor resolution equal to cruisers, fast warp speed/acceleration, and some sort of mass reduction/speed bonus.


(Villiam Kaardanen) #6

i wasnt thinking specifically on making a brawling EWAR frig. just that compared to the other races Caldari only has ECM going for them. Amarr has weapon disruptors + energy disruptors, Gallente has Damps + Scram/Point and Minmatar has TP + Webs.

there’s not much left for Caldari outside of Targetted Jammers and Burst Jammers but one of those was moved to be Battleship specificand doesnt work well enoughso the idea was that the Caldari EAFs are still paper thing compared to their navy version but they do something the Navy Griffin doesnt.

the Kitsune has more powerfull jams with longer rangesand thus i didnt see a point on changing it, the Tanuki is designed more as a “Suicide Jammer”, its not meant to go and brawl its meant to be an annoyance to the ships around it since its frigate sized and can use a burst jammer to keep ■■■■■■■ the targets of all the other ships.

i can understand that the other EAFs are doing fine but i think their class looks overloaded in terms of bonuses. as its a single hull trying to carry 2 disruption doctrines at once. so i saw the oportunity to separate them into 2 hulls each one specialized into its correspondant thing (with some exceptions taking in account that Webs and Warp Disruption are already touched by other hulls in the Faction side)


(system) #7

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