I do think it’s odd that a supercap umbrella that requires time, people being around, and somebody not being dumb about their ship fitting is somehow a larger deterrent and a swifter response than CONCORD.
There is evidence that one of the most effective and controversial deterrents in the game it’s people who usually aren’t playing the game…
How often do you stay docked in Highsec because a neutral enters the system?
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Well, they’re playing the game, even if they aren’t physically at their computer.
Yiole, You have some very good insights into the problems in highsec. And (I believe) some pretty good ideas to improve it.
The suggestion that null is safer than highsec, isn’t going to get much support. Having been in both, null is less safe than highsec. For example, losing your pod in highsec is extremely rare, losing your pod in losec is somewhat more common due to smartbombs, but still pretty rare. Losing your pod in null and wormholes is a lot more common (bubbles-o-plenty). Besides the question isn’t whether null sec is safer than highsec (it isn’t), but rather are the rewards in null so exceptional that they distort the risk/reward balance in EvE.
See Highsec has low rewards and low risk. Null is suppose to have better rewards due to higher risk. But comparing the systems, null’s risk/reward ratio is significantly distorted when compared to other areas of EvE, especially wormholes. Compared to null, wormholes have more risk for less rewards. And before any nullbear decides to debate me on that, be ready to explain why null should have perfect intel (Local) and Asset Safety, both of which wormholes don’t have AND have better rewards than wormholes. And don’t whine about having to work with other players, as life in higher class wormholes certainly requires that.
Yiole, you know this lack of balance is true, you spoke about this earlier and I have lived through and have person experience with the results of CCP Seagull’s decisions. Though, to be fair, we have no idea if this was her position or if she was just the face on higher up’s wishes. Yes, SOV is EvE’s endgame. The huge battles get all the press and definitely attract players to this game, it’s pretty easy to see why CCP would want to expand this area. Wormhole life might be a lot of fun (it is), but it doesn’t grab the headlines. But I think CCP is starting to see the negative side of their actions. EvE has lost almost 40% of it’s player base, with highsec being the leading loss area. I believe the loss of senior people in highsec, the ones who taught new players how to play EvE, has hurt this game deeply. Brisc has heard my experiences and has listened to my suggestions. I believe he has the best interests of EvE at heart, and I hope he succeeds in his efforts.
We need to re-establish the risk/reward balance in EvE. Whether we do this by buffing highsec and/or nerfing null is (imo) the best way to get senior players back in highsec. I have stated my thoughts, Yiole I think you have a lot of good ideas in this area too. Lets stick to helping Brisc. Give the guy credit, he’s listening, he’s trying and he really wants EvE to succeed. He’s doing a heck of a lot more than many other CSM members - how many other CSM members do you see active on these forums, promoting discussion?
Siegfried Tahl, I think your insights were great (those were some things we all knew, but really didn’t talk about), and props to others that have given positive input here. A 40% drop in player count, a loss of earnings in 2017, layoffs at CCP are all bad, CCP isn’t a charity, if these trends continue we should all realize where EvE will end up. Props to any player and CSM who is trying to reverse these trends.
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Hello, I would like to propose to introduce a auto- translator into the game, since it will allow players who do not know a particular language to communicate without delivering special problems.
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Well, on the matter of saving EVE, currently I suffer from burnout. Right now i’m waiting for EVE Vegas as (maybe) then the new EP will share some ideas on what he plans to do -if he plans anything at all.
Rubicon’s end point is ina bad situaiton since adding new space with new content and new rewards is nigh impossible to balance against the cureent nullsec -make it even more rewarding and it will destroy the eocnomy; and if it’s not as rewarding as nullsec, CCP can pretty mcuh save the effort.
In the meanwhile, I wonder who is left to save highsec, no matter what CCP does for it. At this point, I can’t imagine CCP doing anything that invited me back into the game. It’s just too late.
Ideas, I have plenty. NPC intereaction. Cosmethic structures. Structure wardecs. And my complex endgame proposal around player-seeded missions coupled with NPC interaction.
But at this point, with highsec a pale shadow of its former being, there is nothing CCP can do to revert the damage. For highsec, it’s like the end of Grave of the Fireflies: it’s too late for food.
Or so I think now.
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I hear you, I just came back from an extended break myself, and have found my friends in game almost all gone or heavily burned out.
I tend to agree with you, CCP can do some minor tweaks, but nullsec is just too much reward for it’s risk. Some RL EvE players and I have spoken and all our thoughts wind up at this point. Face it, it’s just too easy to sit in a quiet system aligned to the station and rat. 40+ mil ticks are bandied about like that’s the expectation. I compare that to a wormhole (where I lived for 3 years), kill sleepers, then loot them, then get back to k space to make iskies, all the while not having perfect intel (local). Running class 5 sleeper sites required you to field 30+bil isk for more time than a typical sanctum, and then having to loot, and could not be run solo.
Us older players remember when you had to work to make iskies in null, that’s why many didn’t go there. We just didn’t have the rl time to commit to succeed out there. CCP has made it too easy to succeed in null, you can log in for an hour and make upwards of 150+ mil, without having to loot, and do so with pretty low risk. One of my friends pointed out the best way to get people out of null is to remove/delay local and remove asset safety (sounds like wh life, without the looting part). Imagine the exodus then (and the whining on the forums). I don’t begrudge the alliances that work together and succeed out there, but there are many casual players out there who would never have made it in 2006.
Anyway, enjoy your time off and have fun @ EvEVegas (if you go). o/
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An integration to google translate would be really nice.
Typical response do you even know wtf we use today in null?Supers and rorquals all day so we can drop more supers and rorquals
While I do agree that null’s risk/reward ratio is distorted at the moment, I also think that buffing high sec and/or nerfing null in an attempt to bring more experienced players back to high sec is a fallacy. It would also be counterproductive.
With the exception of the occasional alliance theft that makes the news, it’s primarily the huge battles in null that attract most of the publicity and new players. You mentioned this yourself in a previous post. The problem is that the huge Titan blobs in those battles require a fair amount of ISK and without the current reward system in null, many players wouldn’t be able to afford themselves the Titan they so desperately want.
Going back and getting players to fight using battleships like the olden days ain’t the solution either. These days, a lot of new players who join the game for massive fights are not content with being part of the massive fleet, they join the game because they want to be part of a massive Titan fleet. Give it a bit more time and a few more battles like the one we’ve seen in X47 a couple of days ago and soon people will only be happy with Titan fleets going out to destroy very expensive Keepstars.
Over the years, CCP (out of necessity) had to keep raising the stakes in null in order to attract more players and I think we’re beginning to see the effects of that now. It’s a system that is not sustainable indefinitely unless you can keep growing your player base year on year.
SOV ain’t EvE’s end game. SOV is CCP’s endgame because it attracts the headlines they so desperately need to keep growing their player base. SOV ain’t every players end game however. There are many people quite happy logging in for just a few hours a week and running missions. Some can’t even afford to spend more time. Not all players are teenagers who’s only worry in live are their school grades and who can afford the time to be part of a fleet that requires 3 hours to form, 8 hours of exchanging doomsday blasts and another 2 to 3 hours of mop up to reap the spoils of war. There’s plenty of players with jobs and a household to run beside that who aren’t even able to dedicate more than a handful of hours to the game each week. Some even have the added burden of having to listen to the moaning of their constituents. (Sorry; couldn’t help myself).
The sad truth is that over the years, CCP has done very little to make life interesting and engaging for players who either prefer high sec life or say in high sec out of necessity. Null-seccers might look down upon those players, but the sad truth is that EvE needs those about as much as it needs the Titan blobbing, Keepstar bashing glory seekers in null. No matter what your goal is, EvE life starts in high and high sec is the (potential) fuel CCP needs for their massive Titan blobs in null. So while capturing new player’s imagination might start with the news headlines, continuing to keep that imagination fuelled is a big part of high sec (or what high sec should be). Unfortunately though, Ima Wreckyou hit the nail firmly on the head when she mentioned that high sec in its current state is boring.
Unless I’m wrong, the root cause is CCP’s persistence in trying to “force” players in banding up together. Sure, by definition that’s what you’d expect in an MMO, but I think over the years, EvE has proven itself to be an environment where you can easily enjoy yourself as a solo player. After all, Serenity’s crew also preferred to go it solo in the outer fringes. Those joining the game with the goal of participating in a Titan blob already know that they will need to be part of a player corporation at some point and are quite happy to do so. Others don’t need to be forced, they need to be encouraged. And if some prefer to remain a high sec care bear… so be it. We need those to help new players learn the game as well and in the end, it’s yet another monthly subscription for CCP. The sooner they realise that the better.
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Two problems with this:
- Neither thing I suggested (and I stated they weren’t just my ideas) would change anything about null’s reward system. Only the risk system. And while you null bears are horrified at such a proposal - remember Wh players have to deal with both of those AND having to haul everything back to K-space to make any iskies.
and
- Guess what, those huge titan blobs are not attracting more players to the game. All those buffs to null sec have seem to have failed in that regard. EvE has lost over 50% of it’s players in the last 3 - 4 years. CCP lost money last year and doesn’t appear to be happy this year either. They laid off staff, they allowed their senior producer to leave a few months ago, they released a large expansion (the abyss) and are now trying to get people to use it. One would expect that CCP (and to his credit, Brisc) want to reverse this trend, want to grow EvE again.
How many corps/people here tell new players “head out to null”. How’s that been working out? I remember the days EveUni would take players into losec/null on 80+ gang roams (and they weren’t the only ones) and teach players how to survive. Back then EvE was growing every year. The formula of corps getting people in highsec and training players helped EvE grow every year for about 10 years or so. Why would you believe this system wouldn’t work anymore?
In this case I agree with you. It’s just who and how to help them that we differ on (which is fine, it’s what discussions are for). I believe the best way to help them is to get senior players back in highsec so that we can interact and teach them better. And if you come to that conclusion, the only way to get players back into highsec is to either buff highsec or nerf the other regions (or some combination of both). Face it, if you’re not in highsec, you really aren’t going to get much interaction with new players.
Another thing I agree with you on is that nullsec requires dedication - it’s why I’ve kept my characters out of there so far, even though I have one with perfect capital ship skills. At this moment (and for the foreseeable future) , you may desperately want me to set my alarm for 2:30 for some op, but it’s never going to happen, my job simply won’t allow it. So I enjoy wh and smaller PvP stuff while I keep some characters in highsec to provide the iskies. Maybe in the future, I’ll have time to commit to life out there, I just hope there’s still an EvE to play.
Thanks for helping to make my point…
One more thing…
Ironically enough, this was exactly what got me interested in EvE back in 2005…….
One other thing…
I don’t believe this for a moment. Sure CCP likes the headlines, ‘no press is bad press’ as they say. But CCP can clearly see my character’s activity over the past 12 years. I’ve been in highsec, Losec, WH’s, Null, I’ve done pretty much everything in EvE, yet even though my characters have more than enough skillpoints to fly almost every ship in EvE, I’ve never fought in one of those big tidi fests. I’ve never been part of a SOV alliance. And despite this fact, they have never sent me an email, refusing my subscription money. They have never asked me to no longer play their game since I’m not playing ‘the way’ they want. In fact I’m pretty sure they like those twitch streamers who show the fun that can be had with small gang or solo PvP. CCP has often stated that what they want is people at their computers, playing their game. Ironically, once CCP started favoring one style of play significantly more than others, their player base (and now their income) started dropping. A fact I’m sure hasn’t gone unnoticed in Iceland…….
Erm… When did I give the impression that I’m a null bear? My activities in null are currently limited to jumping into SOV with an Astero to do exploration. Oooooh the fun I have salt mining the moment all those so called “elite EvE players” feel the need to dock up at the mere sight of a nobody in a little frigate invading their space. The fact that a lot of null bears cry foul about how we high sec care bears “don’t have what it takes” and “whine whenever someone dares to shoot at us” makes it even more amusing. Sometimes there ain’t enough boxes of Kleenex in the world… 
You’re going to have to explain that one to me. We do both agree over the fact that it’s the huge fleet battles that cause the most press for CCP and attract most new players. Yet, whenever I look at video’s and screenshots of those battles, all I see are titans, titans and more titans (mostly those Amarrian penises to be more specific). So how are you then saying that that is not what what’s attracting people to the game?
Moreover, since I’m currently playing solo, whenever I’m in game, I tend to chinwag with the people in the Eve University public channel. There’s quite a few Goons and Test guys in there testifying about the amount of players trying to get the ISK together for a titan. (Actually, that’s where I got the little info from that I’ve got).
I remember those days too. In fact, during my time in the Uni, I frequently used to scout for those 80+ gang roams. When I was a mentor for newbies wanting to get involved in scouting and cloaky ops, one of the exercises I gave them was to make it to the Solitude HQ via Sindicate (… and back). The use of WH’s was explicitly forbidden during that exercises (fond memories are coming back). I also never said that established cops telling new players to head out to null is a system that wouldn’t work anymore. On the contrary. Apparently we seem to come at this problem from different angles.
You mentioned earlier that the Uni is a shadow of its former self. May I ask how you came to that conclusion? Is this purely based on the lack of Unista’s you see in Aldrat? Because if that is the case, let me tell you that E-Uni moved their HQ from Aldrat to Slays in 2015.
Also, if you read the E-Uni history page, between 2014 and 2016, they seriously stepped up their game and took people on extended deployments in both null sec and WH space. Granted, the lack of info about their 2017 and 2018 shenanigans are somewhat worrying me and as I currently haven’t re-joined the Uni (yet), I can’t shed any light on that. But in the meantime though, I can see that they still have about 1300 members (and considering the Uni regularly purges inactive accounts, I believe we can assume that the majority of those 1300 members are active ones), there are still people applying to join every day, and every day there are people enquiring about their position in the interview queue. E-Uni appears to be in a better state than the game overall. I can’t comment on any other corps because I haven’t checked them out.
It’s the assertion that there is a need to bring experienced people back from null into high sec to teach new players that I disagree with. Primarily because there appear to be at least some people around in high willing to teach new players already, and also because players in null might not be interested. I don’t think the successful players in null are there solely for the higher ISK rewards. To them, the higher ISK is purely a means to an end, that end being involved in a scale or manner of gameplay that high sec currently can’t provide. The ones that are there for the ISK are probably just “renters” who have no interest in teach new players anyway. And if they are, what’s so interesting and engaging in docking up whenever there’s a frigate-flying neutral in local waving his Kleenex at them?
Sure. When I hear about people making 200mil an hour mining with a T2 Rorqual while having poor skills at mining to begin with, or people earning 120 to 150mil an hour afk ratting in a carrier, something is obviously very wrong with the risk/reward system in null. Then again, penises (sorry, Titans) don’t come cheap
Anyway, you might have a different perspective on things based on your own experience. If so, please feel free to share, because like Brisc, yourself and a host of other people posting in this thread, I too would like to see Eve regain its footing. 40% player loss over the last few years = not a trend I’d like to see continue.
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That comment wasn’t directed at you, but more for people like Dark. My experiences in null are very similar. Whether it be in an inty gang, or an AF roam. Watching carriers dock up the second a non-blue appears in local always brings a smile to my face.
Because overall EvE is losing players. I agree that many new players see the press and think they want that shiny titan. But obviously there aren’t enough new players to offset our losses. I remember well the days we averaged 50K+ players on line. I’m pretty sure Iceland remembers them too. I’m sure many new players that read all that press, and dream of titans, most likely they have little to no idea of how much dedication and time is required to get that titan (without spending quite a bit of RL money) and then learn to properly fly it. And never mind that when they finally get that titan, how little fun those big tidi fleet fights actually are.
Props to you (seriously, I have great respect for people who help this great game), but you weren’t the only one. I knew quite a few other players, like yourself, that created content for new players that helped teach them how to play EvE. Far too many are gone now, whether they left EvE (many have) or left highsec, the end result is the same. We aren’t keeping enough new players in game. IMO, the sooner we get new players in a corp, the sooner we can get them to understand how to play EvE. But many of those corps who used to interact with new players everyday are gone. I discussed some of my experiences in posts above.
Couple things, like I said lack of seeing them in metro (you helped explain that). Trying to reach them to help a new player and getting no response, and then going to their webpage and seeing the activity at least looking like it’s dropped off. But, I’ll defer to your experience here. That I still have respect for what they do, is seen by the fact that when I speak to newer players, my advice is often to seek EvE Uni out (since sadly the corps my alts are in can’t help them).
That’s my primary goal too.
Here are some thoughts some trivial and some not, but I will let you decide which is which…
- give me more variation on hacking puzzles, they get boring after 15 or 20 and let some of them be very hard. Different maps for hacking would be nice too.
- let me earn better hacking gear
- Give me a tug type vessel to move containers as containers - exposed to the world and possible to lose in jumps and pushes in warp - the more containers I am moving the higher the chance of loss
- look at the mechanisms for PI - I don’t care if it is complex to make top level stuff, but lets make it easier to teach level 1 from setup to retrieval
- go back to 1, 2 and 3 mining lasers in the barges - they at least had character then
- continue to build out the expedition frigate line - it would be nice to see a larger expedition ship with some Q ship capabilities (dual purpose - mining and fighting lasers anyone?)
- Give me a small structure that can hold a refining module or a ship building module, but not both. Give it limited size, build materials, and defense - something solos or small groups can use to produce
- Upate the loyalty system to mean if you are perfect for one race, you can’t be for another. Meaning either you midrange all of them or you are in danger when you leave your sovereign area
- Think about cutting cycle time on mining and its impact on all spaces
- If you are not going to go back to 1, 2, and 3 lasers in barges make the ore holds all even numbers, so that you don’t waste space and time (which is not logical in a ship design to begin with)
- Explore a wider range of mining drones - what would it mean, what might they do and how might it change the game
- Look at reducing the time for most frigate skills - if you need to split frigate weapons into their own set of skills. Let new players get into small ships with a high level of skill quickly (giving them skill injectors or free skill points helps but does not teach the game will)
- Make it easier to find corporations to join - provide an area were research is possible on corps with high sec activity (this would not apply outside of high sec) - hours one, number of active members, total hours per month of activity, etc. Let the corps then add activity type, open to new players, requirements, etc to this site. Because concord does not have ships to speak of in Null, W or Low Sec, no information is gathered there.
- Hold some focus groups with regular high sec players to find out what they like and don’t
- Since CCP has email addresses for lapsed players - send a well put together survey to them to find out why they lapsed. Send it to any player who spent time in the game and has not logged on in at least 3 months and keep doing it.
I have more ideas, but this is enough for now.
It will spike a bit at first, but then settle back down again. The bigger issue is the is lack of reward. People that don’t run these do not understand the risk of doing so. As stated in many other posts, ship, implants, boosters, all that is just too expensive for what these provide.
Myself, I quit doing them altogether, I might check some out during the event, maybe, depends whats in the patch notes and what they do to them. If I don’t see any significant changes that make them worth my time over other stuff in the game, be it for fun or for ISK generation, then there is no point in running them.
And I also agree with a lot of posts here. When I started playing Eve I had a lot more time then I do now. Now I play maybe 1-2 days a week a solid session, then maybe like an hour or 2 twice, and thats it. And I left NS for a multitude of reasons, this was one of them.
So I love trying out new stuff CCP comes up with, but the permament new stuff is just not very good and needs reworks. Like otehrs have said, resource wars, FOBs, NPC miners, all this stuff seems like wasted dev effort and recourses.
The random events are OK, some better then otehrs, hell, even the rogue drone event was good despite the sucky rogue drones because I saw a lot of new players and old players partake in it, as well as a lot of pvp and various shenanigans over the loot boxes.
So I do hope they end up reworking some of this stuff to make it worth doing, but I seriously doubt it. Whoever is in charge of these things seems to be completely clueless as to where the reward threshold lies to attract a good portion of player base long term.
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Power level of these is over 9000. We could start with loan contracts as they seem simpler to implement.
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WRONG. Pepsi is what we want, not coke.
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The CSM summit is over, minutes will be released someday, I’ve re-read the thread and I am waiting to see what did this thread serve for.
Like, waiting eagerly.
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I would like to raise the issue of Empire Faction standing.
What they used to do:
- Provide access to Agents
- Enabled the option to place JC’s on HS NPC stations
- Influence market tax
- Allow/deny unharmed access to empire space
Now, at least one point has been effectively removed (JC’s). I would also argue that Empire standings have way too much consequence to it than the Concord-Equivalent, SecStatus.
Consequence as in: how long will it take to undo the damage you did through your actions (Secstatus: buy back, Empire Standing: THE LONG ASS PLAN).
I would therefore argue that Empire Faction standings needs to be revisited. The “rewards” you get spending ages of your time to get significantly higher than +5 are not proportional to the rewards (3 Faction ship BPC’s).
Also, I would argue that Empire Standings could be transformed into a long term goal for players that focus on doing missions primarily. With that said, I propose unique rewards for achieving very high standings.
Right of the top of my head: a new line of ships that can only be used with appropriate faction standing (+9 for the BS, +8 for a cruiser and +7 for a frigate, as example) and which bonuses scale with their standing towards the faction similar to the marshals (?) bonuses that scale with SecStatus. Make them useless in PvP but make them the be-all-end-all for mission running (maybe require the appropriate faction marauder in exchange for the ship + LP).
As an additional layer on top of this: Epic Arcs that can only be flown in these ships (mostly for lore), Maybe a “Medal of Service” issued from the related empire could be rewarded for completing it.