You’re normally a nice respectable dude, this is an asshat comment.
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For a game where most players use multiple monitors, the idea that a quarter of an inch of extra space in non-compact mode is making the UI unplayable is beyond dumb, and I am tired of hearing these kinds of whiny criticisms.
They have gone out of their way to reduce the empty space, and create ways to fix it so folks who want the UI to look like it used to can. And it’s still not good enough. It’s not like you can’t reduce the size of the UI to 90% if you need it smaller, or reduce the font sizes, or use the compact size.
If you really don’t think you’ve got enough screen space, then yes, get a bigger monitor.
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How do you know most people use multiple monitors? Even CCP does not know that.
I am sorry that you are tired of hearing people “whine”. Quit the CSM if it is so tiresome. You are adding precisely nothing with your attitude.
What you and Feld clearly fail to comprehend is that updating the code for the UI does not necessitate changing the appearance of the UI, how the UI uses space, the fonts it uses, the buttons it shows, the basic functionality. “Oooooh, but it is prettier…”
The UI is quite literally the means by which players interface with every aspect of the game. (Duh!!!) So it is critically important that it is not degraded. Photon is a degradation of the old UI. I could not care less about multiple Overview windows - fine, if it is important to some people to add that feature, then do so. But do not break the basic functionality and ergonomics of the UI in the process. By all means update the code, but allow the same, or more, information to be conveyed in the same, or less, screen space.
If you and Feld cannot understand these basic principles, then have the decency to admit to a lack of basic comprehension, stop defending the indefensible, and preferably resign from the CSM.
To think that I once had sympathy with you for your treatment by CCP.
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Ah yes, because I disagree with you about the UI, you’ve lost all sympathy for me being falsely accused and smeared. I guess that was all okay now, because I think people are complaining unnecessarily about the UI changes. And no, I’m not resigning because some random dude on the forums suggests I should because I don’t have a problem with the UI changes. That’s absurd.
CCP has explained why they made these changes - not only did they update the back end, they are trying to normalize all the three dozen different UIs so that they are all similar. There was 20 years worth of random UIs that were not similar and not standardized, different colors, different fonts, etc. They are trying to fix that so it’s uniform. There is nothing wrong with that.
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The UI is 20 years old…it needs to be updated and unified. This has more to do with the backend than what you are seeing. Hey, by all means, ask for a similar look to what the UI used to look like (or the option), but don’t try and limit progress. The Backend needed to be redone so that they can added requested features and bring the game into it’s third decade, things are not going to perfectly match up…CCP is human after all. All we’ve seen so far is what they are rebuilding, the new stuff will come later, I doubt multiple overviews and what they gave the players a sneak peak of last year is going to be the last of it.
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You miss my point.
You are free to have a different opinion about the UI. Of course you are.
What is indefensible is for you to then project your opinion on the rest of us in an arrogant and condescending manner. To tell us to buy bigger screens. To sneer at perfectly reasonable complaints and questions as to why the new coding for the UI necessitates less efficient use of screen space, poor font choices, poor button placement, etc.
I am not some random “dude” (a vile Americanism if ever there was, almost as bad as “bro”…) I am a paying customer, whose opinion is as valid as yours. So do not sneer, do not condescend, do not tell people to buy a bigger monitor. It is because of your lack of respect for others that I suggest you should resign, not because your opinion is different.
Three dozen UIs? There is one UI. I assume you mean three dozen possible windows? Funny how the CCP that is so keen to standardise these windows is still failing to do so in Photon.
In three days time we are being forced into something that is still underdeveloped and a degradation of what we have at the moment. Even if you believe that Photon really is the path to the sunny uplands of Eve’s future, do please pause and ask whether it is good enough to say that “Oh, they are working hard to resolve all the issues that have been identified by the players”, unless you earnestly, truly believe they will all be resolved in three days time.
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So now you’re the whiney ■■■■■… quit the CSM if you can’t deal with folks that have a different opinion than your eliteness. WTF dude…
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I am not trying to limit progress. I am asking that functionality and efficiency are maintained, preferably improved. Loss of functionality and screen space efficiency is NOT progress. Photon should not require loss of functionality and efficiency, but due to poor design and poor understanding of how players use the UI (plus clearly an arrogant dose of “just buy bigger screens”), sadly Photon is delivering just such losses. Which is unacceptable.
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You’re complaining about what amounts to be unnoticeable to the average player though. Maybe provide some examples of what you want changed or what you don’t like rather than complaining about things being a pixel thicker or different, as that’s is what it seems like to me that you are complaining about.
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My dear sir. Spend an hour or twenty reading the multiple threads where individuals such as @Dyver_Phycad have laid out in painstaking detail, far more forensically than I have time to do, precisely the issues about which we are complaining. We are not talking about the odd pixel, but wholesale misuse of screen space, to take just one example.
The shortcomings of Photon have been catalogued exhaustively. I am sorry that you have not devoted the time to read them, but please do not then accuse those of us who are concerned, with showing a lack of evidence.
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I don’t see any such posts since they last updated the UI from that user. The most I see are people saying either there is too much lost information or that compact is not small enough (two conflicting sides). There are also people giving additional feedback for what they would like to see different. There is also more updates coming with the faction campaign update.
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“Perfectly reasonable complaints” = one guy spamming up my thread about the CSM summit with his nitpicking about the UI is not perfectly reasonable complaints.
You are a random dude, whether you like it or not. Yes, you’re a paying customer, but I don’t work for CCP. I was elected by the players - other paying customers like you - who think I do a pretty good job representing their interests, and have done a good enough job they’ve sent me back to do it four times.
So, perhaps, when I get tired of the same nitpicking from the same guy more than a dozen times in my post that had one small paragraph mentioning the UI team, I got tired of it and pointed out that his complaints about the size of the empty space around certain elements is absurd.
There are multiple different UIs - the agency window has a different UI than the market window, for instance, and looks like nothing else in the game. Prior to the changes the skill queue looked nothing like anything else, etc. There were dozens of different sizes, colors, fonts and the rest and all of these changes were layered in over top of existing elements over the last twenty years, even though there have been some UI changes in that time. The company said flat out, in their dev blog about photon, that “…[t]his has made parts of the UI less than cohesive, even confusing, and difficult to master. In addition, maintaining many UI styles is ineffective, leading to increased development time.”
Photon UI looks good, is coherent, and is allowing them to do things we’ve been asking for for ages, like multiple overviews. I do not have any serious problems with it at this point, and we have seen them make constant iteration on it from the beginning. If I thought they weren’t going to continue doing that - and we met with them last week and they were clearly still working on things - then I would say that.
Folks don’t like change, and I accept that. But given the fact that the vast majority of players are not complaining about Photon, including some of my friends and colleagues who hate CCP with a visceral passion and lose no time attacking them for the slightest of reasons, and I don’t have a lot of patience for folks who want to do nothing but complain and can’t even grudgingly accept that there are parts of the new UI that are better than before.
Log in this year, and I’ll consider taking your advice.
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Even if I played on a 6 inch monitor, it’s irrelevant to the argument that Photon wastes space unnecessarily, for no good reason and in fact to hide and obstruct important information. Even on my 27" 4k monitor, I see less information and space thanks to Photon and despite Bloatpacting all the windows.
Besides: Since Photon is focused evidently on making EVE more mobile friendly, your gaslighting argument about screen sizes is a sad joke.
With what character I post on the forums is irrelevant to the debate. What should matter is not who but what is posted. And what I post is factually based in the gameplay experience with Photon and proven with screenshots. In contrast to your claims that Photon has made things better, by the way.
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That’s because I have found most issues and nothing has changed in Photon since. Do you think I waste all day alpha testing non-changes for CCP without pay?
That is not conflicting at all. You are stupid if you say this. The Old UI is much more compact than Photon’s Bloatpact and shows more information and UI features. That is what people want when they say “Photon Compact is not compact enough”. Gaslighting and distorting arguments to suit your uninformed opinion is doing Photon a disservice.
First of: That is wrong. The old UI is not 20 years old, it’s not even 10 years old. Lightflow UI or whatever it was called, was introduced well after 2015. If you talk big, at least don’t embarrass yourself with spreading wrong information.
Second: No one is disputing the need to update the UI. People with more informed opinions and experience than Brisk or Kenneth simply dispute the notion on how it should be done and point out the tons of issues on the current way it is being done.
Making windows, tabs, UI elements so rigid, static and narrow and unflexible that even 4 letter texts cut off goes against CCP’s boastful claims of how Photon allows them more customizability of the UI. If even such tiny aspects of the UI can’t be done right, there’s little reason to believe that they can get other, bigger new features right. That has been proven by the poor implementation of Multi-UI, which interferes with Dscan usability, which requires extra effort to fix every time you undock or by using other options than the convenient AOS for the dscan.
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Perhaps if you and other elitist members of the bloc-elected CSM actually stopped and considered the highly constructive and forensic comments that other people - the “random dudes” that you so despise - had thoughtfully and exhaustively written on these fora, even if you personally disagreed with them, then you might actually have done a better job on the CSM. Might have pressed CCP to do a better job communicating with, rather than at, their customer base.
If you felt that @Dyver_Phycad was “spamming up my thread” (how dare he post on YOUR thread) then perhaps that is because you lack cognitive skills to realise that possibly, just possibly, changes to the UI are the single biggest issue for the game in the coming months, because, as I say, the UI affects everything. So CCP would be well advised to make sure that the changes to the UI are absolutely the best possible, not just pretty, and appropriate to the systems on which people play the game. Perhaps, just perhaps, these changes demanded more than just a sycophantic “one small paragraph” in your State of the Game address. Even if you personally like Photon, is it wise and appropriate to force the changes now on a customer base that is not as convinced as you?
Oh, and your very retort shows that there is only one UI, just a lack of coherence. The point is that there is an equal lack of coherence in Photon, a bit of a failure if that is one of the evils they seek to address, and furthermore lack of coherence does not trump functionality. Not once has anyone explained why there is a need for Photon to have such vast empty space in its design, as if it were intended for use with fat fingers on a mobile telephone screen, not a mouse on the huge monitors you are saying we should all be buying. Go on, I challenge you. Why is such wasted space needed? Please.
I am sorry, but you are a busted flush, sir, and your arrogance and self-regard shines forth more than you may realise.
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You’re getting warmer and have answered your own ‘challange’, professor.
Also, what is a “busted flush”?
Google is your friend.
I am not a professor, and do not claim to be. I am of course simply a “random dude” in the view of certain members of the CSM. So do not be snide, please.
Oh, it is spelled “challenge” by the way. As any primary school teacher, not professor, will tell you.
Toodles.
Hello,
could you please post a fullscreen screenshot of your UI/Window-Setup in the classic UI in space? I have switched to Photon weeks ago and I don’t really miss anything after a few days of adaptation. I am interested to take a look at what you mean exactly. Thank you.
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I have seen nothing from the Dev team that has said anything about making EVE more “mobile friendly.” Why they would do that when this is not a mobile game, and they already have a mobile game, I don’t know.
They’ve explained multiple times why they’re doing it. And yes, when you are making the claim that “I see less information and space,” the size of your screen does matter. I’ve seen no appreciable difference in the amount of screen real estate the new UI takes up.
No, it’s entirely relevant, when you’re making claims like “People with more informed opinions and experience than Brisk or Kenneth…” (you can’t spell my name properly despite it literally being on the screen right there - or did Photon UI turn the C into a K?) that rely on experience, it helps to know the actual background of the person posting. When I look at your EVE-who and zkill and see you’ve done nothing but lose crap in highsec and haven’t lost a thing since 2020, it makes me think you don’t actually play very much and your comments aren’t credible. Post on your main, or don’t post.
The UI is not one single thing - it’s a patchwork of different windows, fonts, sizes, colors and screens, and some of it hasn’t been touched since 2003. The last changes to it only changed the way the neocom looked, and as far as I am aware, didn’t touch anything in the backend, just papered over the existing problems.
I’ve done a pretty good job on the CSM, and I’ve won multiple awards from third parties for it. I do read the comments, and I pass on the ones I think are good, even if I disagree with them. In this instance, where one guy has managed to derail my post about the CSM summit with more Photon whining, and you have decided to be his mini-me, I’m not going to entertain it.
Most players are not complaining about photon, as I noted. It’s a small minority of die-hards, and that’s why I don’t feel the need to continue the debate. CCP will continue working on the UI, and the folks complaining would do better to stop whining and provide useful constructive feedback, of which I have seen zero in this thread.
You’re adding nothing to my thread here, and these comments are borderline off-topic. Stop posting, please, unless you’ve got something to say about the original post.
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Of course you have not. This most evident in your responses in this topic.
Oh my bad, it was indeed Photon. You see, the c and the k look awfully similar in the ingame UI. Really sorry that I harmed your confidence.
I don’t see why my killboard is of any relevance to the debate about Photon. Care to explain why it would be? I illustrate a lot of my problem reports with screenshots from the game, both old and very new, since Photon is in fact a very new development. I am sure that this should clearly tell you that I am playing EVE actively. However, if you insist that I don’t play the game just because I have no killboard history and if you question the veracity of my screenshots as fake or insufficient evidence for my play activity, I could be inclined to question your claim that you really play by pointing out how astounded you were recently about how OP marauders are. A fact that is well-known to a wide array of players since months and used (and abused, if you believe some voices in forum topics and other places) to the greatest effect in competitive environments such as ESS grids.
I post with whatever character I want to post. You are not going to tell me which of my characters I post with. You either accept my posts based on their contents and provided graphical evidence, or you can ignore me. The forum has a feature for that. I will also continue to post with the characters that I deem most fit for the topic at hand. Especially since someone seems to be of the opinion that a number of my posts are worthy to be flagged to get hidden. I feel honored by that, but it also shows that “post with your main” is not welcome on the forums if you do not agree with the common opinion.
That is patently wrong. The UI was last modernized and completely changed and unified in 2014, and since then has been iterated upon and worked on:
The UI was changed much more profoundly than you lead people on to think. It went way beyond the Neocom. You really should not believe random forum trolls when they tell you obviously uninformed and wrong information. You need to check the veracity of information yourself before you further distribute it as fact.
I have provided more constructive criticism for Photon than anyone else on the forum, on this char and other chars. And since I have been doing that, I have also noticed that a lot of issues remain untouched, ignored or are just how CCP wants them despite their apparent flaws. Maybe you should look closer at feedback topics before you resort to slander.
You say you have not seen constructive criticism in this topic? Firstly, this topic is about the CSM Meeting and part of the Meeting was discussions about Photon. Based on my experience, I challenged your claims about Photon, and I have even given your examples of bad Photon design and what should be fixed about it. This is very much on topic. Whether you like that or not is irrelevant for the factual matters.
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