Nepsy’s reasoning is most certainly flawed; however, I am not as adverse to his HIC-esque idea of cyno inhibiting in which the module is restricted to a specific T2 Omega-only class of ship (for ■■■■’s sake, let’s not make it exclusive to Trigs/EDENCOM). This wouldn’t be “ISK Tanking” or “entitlement” any more or less than cyno lighting is now largely restricted to Force Recons (which I think was a good change in the Cyno 2.0 patch). I still have reservations, but if this were, for example, a HIC-only module (probably targeted-only with at most one per ship), then this would severely limit anti-cyno abuse AND increase HIC utilization outside of NS, which I think would be a great thing. Existing scripted HICs can in fact be mighty useful in both HS and LS, and this change would further increase its utility in both LS and NS… so whereas a HIC in LS wouldn’t be as fully capable as it would be in NS, it is more capable than it would be in HS.
I’m not saying I’m for this, just that I’m receptive to giving it due consideration.
Or we can remove caps from low-sec. Just saying. Let them work there in travel mode only. Problem solved.
Low-sec should be like high-sec, but without the CONCORD. That’s exactly how it felt like many years ago before the proliferation of capital ships, and it was great.
It isn’t just capital ships. Block all cynos in lowsec - let people keep their titans, but make them use the gates. If you absolutely INSIST, perhaps you keep the industrial cynos.
The conversation in this thread has forked considerably from OP’s original post… oh well!
The thing is, you don’t want lowsec to resemble hisec too much. Lowsec should basically be training grounds for nullsec, but not be too overwhelming, hence no bubbles. Caps and cynos should continue to be a thing in general, but supers are a problem.
Ways supers/cynos could be nerfed in LS:
Make them unable to engage in any suspect or criminal activity (regardless of safety setting - basically a “fixed green”). Playerwise, supers would still be able to engage war targets (thereby increasing the relevance of the wardec system outside of HS into LS, particularly when it comes to supers and POS bashing) and suspects/criminals, but nothing else.
Make them unable to engage rats (rats will never redbox). Technically a super could support a fleet by means other than combat and EWAR (restricted), such as using logi or command bursts, and there are ways this could be addressed, such as a LS-specific mechanic in which these cannot be applied to pilots with non-capsuleer log-off timers active (ie. fleetmates do not receive burst effects if in combat with rat in this case).
Make Titans unable to use Jump Portal Generators to or from LS systems. Blops can still use Covert Jump Portal Generators, and supers can still jump to cynos normally. Limiting jump portals to Blops rather than Titans potentially makes them less overwhelming since fewer ships can pass through a shorter distance less frequently due to lower fuel capacity and greater fuel consumption.
Worth considering: Make it so that lighting a non-industrial cyno in LS gives you suspect status
Those with green safety will be able to engage openly and preemptively without wasting time changing safety setting
No one will hurt sec status by engaging non-legal targets
Pilots emerging from cynos (in LS) may be harassed in HS until suspect status drops
To counterbalance the above changes, supers will have limited means to defend themselves against cyno drops by attacking the cyno ship itself
Worth considering: Emerging from a cyno in LS gives you suspect status
Same considerations as above; in particular, supers have limited means to defend themselves against cyno drops (assuming the fleet engages and suspect timers don’t drop before the engagement and there is no other means by which the super can attack per the above restrictions).
(The two “worth considering” points are basically giving cynos the “FW complex treatment” recently applied to non-militiamen entering plexes)
The above changes would nerf both supers and cynos in LS (since only Blops can launch ships to them instead of Titans), thereby easing the burden a bit. These nerfs also strike a good balance so there is no need to “remove (regular) cynos” and/or “remove caps”.
These changes may largely eliminate the need for a cyno disabling module in conjunction with the existence of a Cyno Inhibitor deployable that could and should be deployed in advance rather than in response (OP really should try this). Having said that, I’m not opposed to an at-most-one HIC-exclusive targeted module to inhibit cynos.
I’m fine with all of that (even though I think it would be easier to just prevent caps from doing anything in low-sec aside from passing through), with one very specific exception: you said that “lowsec should basically be training grounds for nullsec.” I take personal offense to that. Nullers don’t need “training” of any sort; they just need a consistent supply of electrical impulses going through their craniums:
I once went on a null-sec fleet op, and then had to leave due to RL. So I set up one of those “dipping bird” toys near my keyboard:
When I came back three hours later, I noticed that I was awarded a medal for “heroism and exceptional service” by the CEO.
“Training” does less (or rather too much) to prepare a person for null-sec, than a liberal arts degree does to prepare a person for functioning in real life. I’m very displeased with you, Archer, for suggesting otherwise. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go and eat a barely-thawed wiener over the kitchen sink in the darkness, and then go cry myself to sleep on the one set of sheets I own, before waking up to a new day of wage slave labor that’s barely allowing me to keep myself from defaulting on my college loans.
Pardon, I should have clarified what I meant: I meant it more along the lines of carebear empowerment and confidence boosting, not experienced veterans running drills or having them train carebears.
Think about it: Lowsec should be a low barrier to entry toward higher level content, which includes caps and cynos and ultimately NS. The transition from HS to NS is impregnable to many, psychologically speaking and for those without mentorship or part of an established group. Having this gradual increase from HS to NS via LS allows carebears to mature and experience higher end content, including PVP, without being overwhelmed by it and retreating back into HS. It makes EVE easier to learn with-or-without an established group or mentor,
In fact, when I said that, I said that from the point of view of NOT having such a group to mentor you. I said it from the point of view of players who like to learn things on their own, who don’t like things spoon fed or reading guides or watching videos or following orders like a mindless drone, or those who like to play with friends who themselves aren’t EVE vets, etc. LS should enable them to spread their wings and not be completely and totally decimated for their ignorance and lack of experienced as would be the case in NS.
I hope my clarifications have made you re-pleased with me
Oh, I forgot to add this to the list above. This isn’t super or cyno related but it is along the theme of “lowering barrier to entry from HS to LS”:
On the LS-side of HS-LS gates only, the displacement from the gate on entering an LS system from HS should be significantly increased to make it more significantly more difficult to gate camp. Why? Once again, we want to encourage carebears to enter LS to experience and explore higher-level content found in LS (and ultimately NS) and gain PVP exposure outside of being slaughtered at a gate camp upon arrival, which is very discouraging, by making it harder to gate camp these specific gates (LS-side of HS-LS gates, of which there are very few). By adjusting these few gates and making them safer (in one direction of travel - arriving at the HS side still has the normal displacement distance), LS is more inviting to carebears, who will be more willing to poke their heads knowing it won’t get immediately chopped off.
Yes, as I suggested bring a HIC friend that can stop cynos. The problem with your suggestion is that you want a module that can be fit to a ratting ship that basically lets anyone rat in perfect safety. Do you really think a squishy recon that does under 250 dps and has about 25k ehp has any chance against a 800 dps 80k ehp gila?
Blops is already a niche playstyle, stop trying to nerf it to make it more niche
Actually yes. Gilas are too strong, 800 dps + 80k ehp is pretty hard to kill
I suggested putting a HIC on field in order to stop cynos, not disregard the idea entirely. Why shouldn’t there be some significant investment in order to stop a cyno? Currently, blops are already a very niche playstyle. Stop trying to make it more niche.
And on the topic of capital hotdropping, there’s a cyno inhibitor module already. It’s not my fault that it’s a single use module that’s slightly expensive. If you can’t afford to use it for edencom sites, then that’s too bad. Don’t complain about it and ask for CCP to make a multi-use version
For capitals specifically, there’s a cyno inhib module? I’m more concerned about blocking blops cynos.
Even though I did lose a measly 200m, these guys had to risk not only a 300m lachesis for the initial drop but they also lost about 600m from a loki and a pod
The risk/reward ratio here is pretty skewed already, and with just the gila alone I had the lachesis down to 25% armour before he warped off
We shouldn’t have a simple module to block cynos that can be fit onto any ratting ship, it should be placed only on ships of a specific class, like HICs or combat recons. That way, we don’t make cynos obsolete, and still provide another way to counter them
Increases HIC utilization outside of NS (if module is HIC-exclusive)
Increases utilization of covert cynos instead of or as preludes to regular cynos since these ships would cyno in advance to defend the Force Recon/Blops lighting the regular cyno not just to keep it alive, but to keep it from being cyno jammed.
Falcon, Covert ECM Tengu, and Widow could use ECM to keep the cyno from being inhibited
Stealth Bombers and Covert T3Cs make for good drop ships in many situations without the need for a regular cyno
Shakes up gameplay in an interesting way; negative consequences are largely acceptable as part of this interesting shakeup
Cons:
“Problem” is arguably not a problem to begin with (though “solution” does make things more interesting)
Deployable cyno inhibitor could and should be deployed in advance to serve the same function as this module would if this “problem” is such a concern without making additional changes
Other balancing changes could largely address the impact of cynos (esp. in LS) without the need for such a module
I’m leaning toward the pros over the cons, but either way balancing changes absolutely need to take place, particularly in LS if not NS.
Outside of regulating supers, we probably want to steer clear of “lowsec-only” mechanics/modules.
A HIC-only module still requires a high initial investment but gives you long-term savings over these deployables:
Solo pilots wanting to inhibit cynos instead of fleeing, confronting the enemy, or using an inhibitor deployable will be forced to use a HIC, so they need to choose wisely. HICs generally aren’t sexy for solo play, but…
Players might be more encouraged to fly in fleets in both LS and NS with someone flying a HIC knowing their HIC can inhibit cynos. This still won’t protect them from cloak drops, or from regular cynos forming off-grid that already have defenses in place from covert cynos, but pretty much anything that encourages fleeting over solo play and venturing into LS/NS over staying in HS is a good thing
Why does everybody want to make lowsec crappier than everywhere else? All the other regions of space have some cool reason to be there - lowsec is just the back-alley between them. Unless you are into Faction Warfare, of course.
Per prior conversation, lowsec should be training + confidence boosting + encouragement for carebears (esp. those who are learning on their own and don’t have mentors/aren’t reading guides and watching videos/aren’t part of established groups) to go toward higher level content + PVP. It has to be regulated so they aren’t overwhelmed by gankers, but so that gankers can still do their ganking against newbies and against each other.
You did bring up a good point on FW - FW systems could have fewer restrictions.
You have your ideas about lowsec. I disagree. If people can live forever in highsec, which many do, then people should be able to live forever in lowsec. There is no reason for lowsec to not be good enough.
Here is my question for you: in what ways would these restrictions significantly lower the quality of life for lowsec residents so as to make it no longer enjoyable/profitable to live there? If anything, I think more existing LS residents would benefit than would “suffer” for it (boooooo can’t gate camp as effectively with a Ragnarok anymore boooooo)
I don’t really understand what the point of a cyno disabling mod would be - and I certainly wouldn’t use it. But - the argument that it would be good somehow, but lowsec shouldn’t be allowed to have it becaus of some “something something training ground something something”? That is a faulty reasoning.
Right now lowsec doesn’t allow bubbles and it has gate guns. Those are basically passive “benefits.” If the people trying to do PVE in lowsec had some unique fitting choices that they could make, to take advantage of the unique lowsec space, that seems like it could be good.
