Cynosural MEGA-nerf suggestion

Persuading the cyno-droppers is pointless, so, let’s not :))
Instead, let’s approach from the different angle.

CLARIFICATION:
There are number of target groups of players. Current cynodorp mechanic is giving too much space for minority of players, thus leaving other groups underfed with the content.
So, that is the main IDEA of nerf initiative - to redistribute the “game spaces” players occupy.
This will give us more healthy and balanced environment, so more ppl could jump on board and play the game!

There was a time, not so long ago before Jump Fatigue, when you could move an entire supercap fleet from one end of the map to the other as fast as you could get the cyno chain setup.

There was a time, not so long ago, when any ship could fit a cyno.

Hotdrops have already been nerfed, and you want them nerfed even more?

These hotdrop-happy groups you refer too are just begging to be counter-dropped with a solid dreadbomb. Why not bait them out and slam them instead of whining on forums?

And CCP realized it became a problem at some point when more and more people got supercaps to drop them into basically every fight. From being a strategical use at important occasions it became an everyday business that destroyed the game experience for all smaller/newer groups that simply couldn’t counter it. So they created fatique to at least make sure these ever-increasing fleet couldn’t be used basically everywhere in no time.

But what happened: People built even more caps. Hundreds. Thousands. Probably tenthousands over the years. Skilled even more chars who could use them and simply outgrew the change. Installed mutiple staging systems with reserve-caps and jumpclones to instantly access them. Over time, the inflation of mobility options was greater than the fatique-nerf was limiting.

Then again, CCP realized it became a problem again and too many groups were simply using Hotdrops again as their daily business and rarely doing anything else but baiting and dropping someone significant smaller. Again the breathing room for all casual groups who just wanted nothing more than to roam around and have some fun in kitchensink T1 gangs became thinner and thinner. So CCP made hotdropping “more expensive” by limiting it to more expensive ships (and with that Chars that needed to be more developed).

Again, over the years the inflation spiral outgrew that change completely. New income sources made it possible for individuals and groups to generate ISK in ungodly amounts. A Recon today is nothing but peanuts for those hotdropping groups. It literally does cost nothing. In times of SkillExtractors, SkillFarms, SkillInjectors also the bait and recon pilots can (and are!) frequently replaced. And it’s really not that much of an investment to create a fresh char that can fly a plated recon and open a Cyno. For these groups, it’s like ammo cost. Also there was enough time for these groups to massively skill into BlackOps, which only require cheap, disposable frigs to open a Cyno. And with every month you get more and more chars being able to field these hotdropping ships, the problem is only getting worse.

That leads to the simple conclusion that all the previous nerfs only bought some time. They were 5 steps back, but the players already made 10 steps forwards and completely outskilled, outproduced, outgrinded all these “nerfs”. We again have the situation that powerful hotdropping groups essentially pose a luring threat to large areas of the game, making it incredibly uninteresting and unattractive for newer groups to even try to settle somewhere out of highsec. As said, outside of the Cynojammed or Cyno-restricted FW areas, Lowsec life is literally dead. Only hotdroppers and those blue to them can even exist there. Small/Medscale roaming barely exist any more because of constant hotdrops (including the cap- and supercap backup which makes any attempt of resistance by a smaller group completely useless).

That simply doesn’t happen on a scale that is even remotely comparable to the number of hotdrops these groups do on smaller/weaker targets that have not the slightest chance to fight back or evade those drops (unless not undocking / not engaging). These groups usually have the manpower, the masses of altchars, spies and allies to operate their toys with almost complete safety. To think they can be baited and bombed at a scale that would affect their operations even slightly is a complete illusion. It simply doesn’t happen.

Calling every observation and statement of a clear disbalance and unhealthy development in game environment “whining” is not appropriate. It is usually only used to discredit a poster without having good arguments. And most of the time already knowing that he has a point, but not wanting to admit that.

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all of which requires a non-trivial ISK and training investment.
if a group is prepared to put that kind of an investment into a project, why should they be penalised for it?

i’m still failing to see the ‘problem’ as you put it.

if you want to settle in Black Rise, you have to accept there’s some large groups already living there.

citation needed.

i was derping through Black Rise this afternoon, it was far from ‘dead’, plenty of faction warfare plexes being run, plenty of opportunity for pewpew.

a group with the manpower and resources should be able to ‘rule’ an area and it’s been that way for years. SNUFF ruled Black Rise. The former Project Mayhem had large swathes of Lonetrek, Shadow Cartel in Essence, and the sadly defunct Escalating Entropy in Placid.

they’re far from safe’, they can be baited out, it just requires the will to do so. stage a bunch of dreads in an NPC station, bait the group of your ire into dropping your nano gang, pop your own cyno, counterdrop them.

i fail to see the problem. i’ve had a handful of supers dropped onto my Dramiel in Tribute. It happens. You have time to run once the Cyno gets lit, it takes 30s to a minute for the hotdrop to land. just run away. you might lose whatever the cyno ship has tackled, but you should save the bulk of your gang.

what about when someone is proposing sweeping changes to a mechanic that can be fairly easily avoided in any case?

Changing a mechanic back to it’s intendet use is not “penalizing” someone, even if it might feel this way for some. When Cynos were implemented, so few people actually had a Capital Ship or a BlackOps that these drops were a rare occasion. Also SystemChange (the time between lighting the Cyno and the moment where the jumped-in reinforcement could actually shoot has gone down from roughly a minute to a handful of seconds). In the beginnings, it was almost impossible to catch a mobile gang with a hotdrop, because both Carriers and Dreads simply sucked for doing that and the handful of groups that could afford Supercaps lived deep in NullNull and actually had other things on their mind than catching some lonely Battlecruisers roaming around. This was the environment these jump-mechanics were designed for and in- and out-of-game changes completely made them OP over time. Adaptations were simply needed and rightfully done by CCP with some changes in between. And I am under the impression that the time for another cutback as come as the commonness and swiftness of these drops again outgrew the boundaries whithin they seem to be acceptable for a healthy and balanced game environment for me. You may disagree with that judgement and thats okay, I am not trying to convince you.

No problem with that. But with more power, less mobility/agility shall occur. The Bulldog shall be able to catch the cat - maybe. after a real hard try. But the bulldog shall never be able to catch the mouse. The big groups shall dominate the structure- and capital-landscape in their area of power, no doubt. They just don’t need insta-jumping, since neither structures nor sieged caps can run quickly. They don’t need insta-travel for ruling an area at all. Giving moving gangs tools to prevent being jumped on like the way it’s suggested will in no way break the power of the big groups. But if they want to catch prey, they shall use fast and agile ships and go leave their staging and not bridge a full counter-gang with tackle, ewar, dps and logi on some handfull of roamers.

As said, FW flourishes because you can’t do that much with Cynos in there. I wish for such a flourishing environment all over Lowsec, so you should support me in making all LowSec as inaccessible for Cyno Drops as the FW plexes. Thank you.

I am not proposing “sweeping changes” at all. And I don’t agree that the current form of hotdropping can be “easily avoided”. The number of hotdropping squads, jumprange/bridgerange and the variety of Cyno and Baitchars is way too high for that. You basically have some Arazu following you in less than 30 minutes and you can’t ever check all those spots where the BO gang that belongs to it can hide. Well, in theory you can, but that turns a fun game into a trench war. A contest of waiting and looking out who can trap who without ever firing a gun in hours. The worst kind to waste time in EVE. And then people complain why they have to spin their billion-ISK toys for hours and no one wants to fight them. Well, no wonder. Restrict hotdropping and you will see smaller brawls occur like fresh plants when it rains after a year of drought. FW areas are proof. Delaying Jumptimes and giving gangs tools to at least force Cynos some km off to not have the Hotdroppers land on exactly zero will greatly help a thriving PvP environment. And no large group is robbed of their “ruling power” because of it.

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I see no problem.

Why not just make it longer for cyno beacon to be generated? Ie. you use the module, you are now immobile and you need to wait for the cyno module to complete cycle. => now you are vulnerable and the opposition has an actual chance to destroy the cyno ship before the hotdrop can arrive.

Basically a same effect as what you suggest, but much more logical imo.

I’d go for both actually.

If a cyno is activated, it needs x seconds (length debatable) to charge up, shorter duration for covert cynos, longer for normal cynos. Maybe even add a skill to reduce this time (makes it more costly to create a new disposable cyno alt). During this time, the Cyno-ship is on it’s own. Depending on the size of your targets the pilot must make a careful decsion how far away he would light the Cyno. Too close and he might die if the targets decide to overheat on him. Too far away and they might escape because the incoming support ships can’t tackle quickly enough, or they kill the bait because the incoming LogiT3s can’t get in reprange quickly enough. Whatever decision he makes, will be important for the outcome of the fight (which can really turn into a “fight” this way, instead of a mindless blob).

Once the Cyno is fully charged, ships can jump on it, but still smaller ships jump a lot faster than bigger ships so you need to make another tactical decision: decloak them quickly to tackle and help your Bait and Cynoship, but then the Bombers and CovOps will be on their own until at least the T3 Logis and Ewar’s arrive. And the targets have a window to fight for their lives before finally the BlackOps/Caps come through to finish them off. Or keep them cloaked until the whole fleet is through, protecting them from being targeted first - but then some or most targets might actually escape.

All in all a way improved situation than now. The dropped side gets at least the time and options to fight for their survival, for the dropping side each kill will has a lot more value if it is the result of clever decision making instead of just jumping to zero and wipe the floor with whatever is on grid.

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This topic is full of carebearism…

OP should delete his account and uninstall

and
@Syzygium should just STFU, this is not the first topic he has participated in where he does not have a clue about the game and its fragile ecosystem.

@Syzygium im still waiting for your answer on how many man hours it takes to build certain things.

No constructive arguments, only pure aggression…
How about to say something meaningful maybe? @Max_Deveron

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Hotdropping is not a fragile ecosystem any more. It has grown stronger and stronger and stronger over the years by changes already explained above. Hotdropping has become faster, more common and more convenient than ever and the chances to evade being dropped have never been smaller. Options to react for the dropped side have never been thinner. Nobody asked for any change that would cripple the big groups abilities to rule and dominate their area of influence. They can still deny any other entity to place any structure, they can still protect any own structure. They can still deny capital use of any smaller group in the area and they can still escalate any fight until the opponents have to leave the grid. They can still deny content usage (PvE, resource harvesting) against their will any time.

You have my permission to wait as long as you want. I have no interest to aswer unrelated questions that simply serve as strawman targets. If you want to make an argument with build times against a certain suggestion, bring a good example with hard numbers and explain what problems which suggestion would create in this example in your opinion. And use the appropriate topic.

Ahh, and maybe stay civil in discussions instead of telling people to uninstall or STFU if you don’t agree with them.

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something meaningful…

OK,

you are an idiot that does not know how to play.
Stop crying and get good.
You dont learn if you are are not dying.

Go back and do an AAR, and see what you could do better, what mistakes you made.

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Good job, komrade @Max_Deveron with showing off your inability to support your opinion properly.
I’m sure, devs will appreciate your input!

Btw, did we dorp you recently? Why so salty? :slight_smile: :japanese_goblin:

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