Oh yeah, fair point, never thought about it like that.
It’s never free. Time has a value as well,
even though most don’t consider this at all.
It’s a bad idea to say it like this, because it keeps reinforcing a false belief.
People wrongly believe that the “minerals I mine are free.” because they don’t account for their life time.
One can invest time grinding for ISK to buy ore, saving on mining… (or whatever)
One can invest time grinding the ore directly, saving on ISK.
One can invest time working in real life to buy PLEX to gain ISK to buy ore.
Investing time into something paying real money is the most economical of all options.
Opportunity Cost is a real thing.
Note: This does not change for anyone who is unable or unwilling to choose the most economical option.
I hadn’t considered it from that perspective.
I think its semantics at this point. Though your point is understood.
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This is how a derailed train gets put back on track.
If only I had such a tool to fix the thread you derailed. Maybe next time, create a new thread.
As far as I’ve heard from multiple people who’ve tested it the time of day, the number of pilots or the number of pilots ratting at one time does not have an effect on the DBS. The largest indicator is the number of rats killed in the system during that 24 hour period.
When they announced and talked about this on Twitch, they stated there were a number of levers they could use to manage this system. However from what I can see, the biggest indicator is number of rats, number of pvp kills. I really haven’t seen any other levers that affect this but it’s also only like two weeks old at this point.
But to be fair to your point, yes we don’t really know if the number of pilots ratting at the same time has any effect on this system unless otherwise confirmed/denied by CCP.
The problem is unless we can take a very scientific approach of controlling a system for 24 hours a day, multiple days a week, using subcaps, caps, supers, a even mix of each multiple days and comparing the results a lot of this is guess work as well. Also a some of the different factors can be heavily weighted as well so they might have an effect on the system but be to small to notice outright.
So you asking for additional data points, while I think that might not be useful from what I’ve seen, is fair.
Now the reason I mentioned this was about the DBS system in my reply to you was you brought up the ESS in your original post. The ESS and DBS are separate systems. The ESS or value of the ESS does not have an effect on the DBS.
For your follow up questions I’m usually ratting by myself or with maybe one other sub-cap ratter. There is a mix of other ratters but again it’s a small group and the ratting is usually 1 to 3 people ratting at a time. So far the 1000 rats or 500 mil rule of thumb is the general principle.
But also to be a bit argumentative to your reply, my original post was a general post to CCP complaining about the sensitivity of the system and not a scientific breakdown of the system itself. So when you stated I didn’t provide enough data points, well providing enough data points wasn’t the objective of my post. You also asking for someone to explain how the system works in your second reply also wasn’t the point of my post. So I apologize if we got a bit crossed in what we were asking. I was confused as to why you wanted all of the data you were asking for when again that wasn’t the point of the post.
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Thanks for the great reply!
It’s my fault for starting with this in the first place.
I always love solving a problem, so I jump right into it.
The Thread’s title kind of also … seduced? … me into it.
I could go on and on about it!
Like … if you had all the API Keys of all pilots, it would be possible to figure out when they were ratting based on their wallets.
From the amount of ISK per tick it should also be possible to figure out which ship they’ve used, but one might as well just ask.
You’re probably not the CEO, though, so there’s likely not much you can do in that regard anyway.
In regards to CCP claiming it’s just the number of NPC and PvP kills …
… well … I believe that’s just too easy and I also believe they wouldn’t necessarily tell us the truth.
Maybe it is the truth … but then there’s still things to figure out …
… like if it matters if a PvP kill happens within a specific time-frame when also NPC kills happen …
… which might tell the system that the ratters were being hunted and defended.
To now end my apparent off-topicness …
In the last years I’ve watched CCP improving on their data gathering methods. The Activity Tracker is definitely just the rough shell of a sophisticated system of behavioural tracking. It’s extremely likely they can reliably tell if there’s a ratter being disturbed by attackers and defended by his own guys.
I know you sadly don’t have a way of doing this all scientifically …
… BUT IT’S SO DAMN INTERESTING!!! 
It’s like … reverse negotiation tactics?
CCP offers far less than they could to see if people complain.
If they don’t complain it’s great and nothing needs to be changed.
If people complain they wait for the complaining to fade …
… or give in a little to see if they stop complaining now …
… while still staying below what they theoretically could do.
It’s a nice way of finding or creating a bottom.
Many people will shut up just because it’s better than what it was before.
If that’s enough people then no further changes need to be made.
…
… or maybe CCP actually believes the numbers weren’t fine and adjusted them accordingly.
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CCP need to realise that in game austerity needs to be matched by IRL $ price increases for subs or they’ll soon create a new issue.
But since they are actually having Plex sales & giving free in game assets via daily logins it is clear they have not even considered it, or maybe they are 3 moves ahead.
lol. I don’t know if they intentionally exploit anchoring bias or not, but it would actually be a smart move.
There’s actually little reason to believe they’re not …
… and there’s many little things which make me believe they do.
The big hint, Crowd Control Productions aside …
… the fact that people believe they’re stupid …
… adds a lot to the idea that they know exactly what they’re doing.
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Some of the screeching regarding drones would appear to support your hypothesis.
On the first version of DBS numbers, basically none of the systems are hit hard, so they cranked it up in the last few days, and everyone is suffering.
Good news! They tweaked it just now, try it out for yourself!
Not buying it, to come in low and increase to a point where people stop complaining accepts that you are entering the market at a point where players will be lost intentionally. Eve Online is a business.
I think they made a judgement on what the numbers should be and are now iterating in response to feedback.
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Even if they get the numbers right, it still doesn’t do anything to incentivize PvP. If noone is ratting, then no incentive; if system can only support a small number of people ratting, then small ESS (and smaller now with 2 hour refresh - and longer response time up from 5 mins)…
Weird… they have tweaked the numbers, but there is no improvement of the underlying system.
Have you been living under a rock since the BlackOut?
All the changes since then were aimed at kicking farmers and carebears into their collective butts.
CCP is actively trying to get rid of that type of players.
It’s not the first time and probably not the last time they’re switching their target audience.
You’re probably not aware that EVE was only catering to carebears for a few years, but not its entirety of existence. In the time between CrimeWatch 2.0 and the BlackOut they’ve been pleasing farmers and carebears hard enough to harm the game, which they’re now correcting again by trying to please their actual core audience again.
Yes, CCP is a business and EVE ONLINE is aproduct. When the customers kill the product, though,
it’s best to look for new customers. That’s what they’ve been doing since the BlackOut.
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I’m not sure about “get rid of that type of players”, ISK still very easy to come by. CCP cutting some excess fat from carebears, but not to much at a time, so carebears will not run away to another game. If they wanted to get rid of carebears, changes would be much more drastic.
So, I believe, carebears still valuable customers for CCP.
One of the things that makes (made?) EvE unique to me was the sense of “If you can think of it, you can do it. Or more likely; someone else already did it”.
So, given that, is it so unlikely to think that if krabs leave the Happy Hunting Grounds in disgust, and Roamers cant find PvP to have, the Roamers could get the same rewards by having a slightly modified fleet that could filly in, rat, scoop loot, but also used it as bait and/or be ready to run with the loot should the time be Hot Drop O’clock?
Cos that sounds like good content to innocent little me.
No I don’t see that. I see CCP trying to balance the economy whilst doing everything they can NOT to lose pve centric players. Hence the buff to the DBS numbers in this week’s patch to stop the decline that’s we’re beginning to see within the PCU numbers which, although we can’t know for sure, may indicate a reduction in subs.
Balancing the economy does not mean eradicating pve players. They are quite different things. For me they need to delete null sec anoms and replace them with pve content similar to abyssals so that ratters are losing ships to both pve and pvp encounters.
I don’t think ESS pvp can keep ratting in check alone + more challenging pve content would keep pve centric players subbing. Another way to help balance things would be additional ISK sinks.
Try to think of Eve as a business and not as a passion project and try not to be too one dimensional in your train of thought. There are almost certainly designs that provide improved pve and pvp content whilst also balancing the economy.
I’ll ignore the last part of your post as you’re building a straw man.