Dear EVE, here is why I say goodbye


(Elarian Francis) #123

That’s not the point. Some posters were saying that new players are not really as a disadvantage compared to old ones, because they can buy “Skill Injectors” that cost 185m ISK.

My point is, “Skill Injectors” give further advantage to ‘Old’ players because they can get one in 2 hours whereas ‘New’ players must grind for a month!


(Teckos Pech) #124

OMG…

Yes, so why are you so butthurt it takes you months to get into a ship that costs more than a billion ISK?

Second, there are dis-economies of scale for injectors. I am not going to buy injectors because I only get 150,000 SP from each one. If anything I am a supplier of SP, not a buyer. I also, in turn use that ISK to buy some PLEX…so I help transfer SP and ISK to newer players.

The older player is likely creating 10 injectors and selling it to new players.


(Teckos Pech) #125

Define disadvantage? You keep saying this, but IMO in a MMO like EVE it is largely Bravo Sierra. A long time player like you should know that “advantage” in a game like EVE is dependent on a host of variables. The veteran player flying a BS solo through NS can easily find himself at the mercy of a new player flying a well fit frigate who tackles said BS and holds it while friends come. You know this yet you keep stating this idiocy as if EVE is only a 1-v-1 type game. It isn’t. It is a sandbox.

Do you even know how this mechanic works. For me to use 1 injector I have to sink 350,000 SP out of the game. Those SP either come from older players sucking out their SP or from SP farms–i.e. characters who are either already where their players want them, or are never going to undock anyways. In other words, this will tend to flatten out the distribution of SP.


(Sindara T'Soni) #126

So what the f is your problem then?

Why are you even trying to relate your tantrum over not being able to do what you want asap with the new player experience anyway? Why are you speaking for and on behalf of new players when you aren’t one and have no right to do so?

Do you think we cannot see your real agenda?

Like I said earlier:

So please don’t put your unrealistic goal onto us, thank you. Speak for yourself.

Also:

This is very important. Read it. Read it again. Understand it.

You dropped your ice cream, as per the above. Perhaps I should have added that in your case, the ice cream was in a chocolate coated waffle cone with a flake and marshmallows and sprinkles and clotted cream on top. That’s what you want back. Right now, this second, or waaaaaa.

Genuine new players are still fascinated by their first taste of plain old vanilla. You can never experience that again.

As you happily admit, you are able to rapidly acquire things in game that would make a new player faint, and yet you want to pretend you are facing the new player ‘struggle’ when actual new players are too busy enjoying the ride.

You are a spoiled brat masquerading as the poster child for the new player. Stop it.

(also for the record I make 800m a month not 200m thank you very much, and that will no doubt increase as I grow and learn, which is my goal, you know, as a genuine new player)


(Teckos Pech) #128

So here is my summary of this ■■■■-thread.

  1. Making 200+ million ISK for a true new player (i.e., not someone’s alt) is not “easy”.
  2. That small skill injectors, which have 100,000 SP, cost 165 million ISK.
  3. That players can buy said skill injectors to over come the “SP Wall” is patent nonsense.
  4. Carriers, dreads, and JFs cost more than 1.5 billion ISK at least.
  5. Based on 1 and 4, it would take a player 7-8 months to get earn enough ISK to get into a dread or carrier, and 2.5 fecking years to get into a JF based on ISK costs alone.
  6. Even if we allow for more efficient ISK acquisition on the part of this “new player” lets say 4 months and 1 year respective for a carrier/dread or JF.

So this leaves me thinking…

Why in the Hell are people whining about the time to get into a these ships when the mythical new player cannot afford them even after a dedicated training time (say 4 months for a JF)? It boggles the mind. Here you can fly this ship, now go out and grind for the ISK…which is probably the worst part of the game.

And in terms of making ISK that is something one learns as one…you know…plays the game. But trying to play the game in expensive ships (for a new player) is not likely to end well.

It is almost as if there is actually a perverse intent here: lets get players into ships they are not prepared for, can barely afford, let them lose it because they are still noobs, and then laugh when they come and complain. Did any of you “SP Wall Whiners” stop to consider that part of the training time is for players to you know…learn the game. The nature of the game, to make friends and get in with a group that can help them learn stuff that is not related to SP?

I know lets give new players 200 billion ISK and 75 million free SP to allocate as they want, I’m sure that will have no adverse consequences on the game. :roll_eyes:


(Jaquan Wessette) #129

Heh I must say I admire your optimism. Personally I’m more jaded. During past 10 months I had at least couple moments of “what’s the point”. Might have something to do with a fact that I’m part of small/medium corp operating in deep reaches of Syndicate where most of people are older players, but I often felt inadequate. In the end I’m currently for lack of better words “master of none”. Can fly any subcapital t1 ship though results are average at best. One sour point I have with eve is that it’s pretty punishing at start when players experiment. Sure it’s only week or two to get average skills in say flying Vexor but for a new player that might be 100% of time he was playing the game. With how many decisions regarding your playing style for god know how long the game requires it’s surprisingly sparse when it comes to giving any help. And finding that one “isk making” thing you enjoy in the game is surprisingly hard. Hell it wasn’t till two weeks ago when I found that one thing that gives me a proper “kick”. FYI it’s exploration. Funny when I think about it. My main is capable of doing pretty well in most of PVE activities be it running Incursions or Blitzing lv4 missions (aside from burners those are bit too specialized) and yet I find scanning down sites, hacking containers and making “maps” of Wh systems most enjoyable. And it’s not a terrible Isk as well.


(Keno Skir) #130

Ah good :slight_smile: At least you found your calling quickly :blush:


(Keno Skir) #131

It’s not nonsense at all. The injectors are affordable, yet not cheap. That’s fine.


(Jaquan Wessette) #132

Wouldn’t call 8-9 months (made my account late December) quickly. But yeah could be worse.

As of skill Injectors they aren’t much of a valid option for a newer players. Sure 4-5 months old player will be able to afford one per month but by that time s/he will also pass 5M SP mark which means kicking in the first batch of limited return. On basic Implant-less toon it would give you 9 days of saved time. Less when we factor in implants and neural remaps.


(Teckos Pech) #133

I meant it was the overall view of the “SP Wall” crowd. Sorry for the confusion.

I’m fine with people doing what they want, and if that means finding a way, even with RL money, to buy skill injectors…I’m totally fine with it.

That is a corporate culture thing. You have two options, try to raise the issue, maybe with the CEO, in a mature and constructive manner (i.e., point out you feel like you aren’t helping the corp as much as you should/could, is there a way that corp leaders can help, etc.) or find a new corp. And you can try both. See if the corp leadership is open to helping you to be a better corp member, and if not then you can always move on.

And there are players who when they first join have “podded themselves” to their NS home and never looked back. Granted for many new players they don’t know about or these options are not available to them. But trying to get them to know these options are there is also not easy. Some players in HS are incredibly insular. I once was going to warn a freighter pilot of a bumping macherial on the in gate in Uedama. He not only rejected the convo, he blocked me. Oh well…was probably his loss.

Exactly my point. There are youtube videos, guides, websites, and even groups in game that can help new players learn all this stuff. But how do you get this information into their knowledge set? That is not an easy thing to do. Trying to get people to absorb knew information, and accept the changes it has on their beliefs and so forth is extremely hard.

And giving players more SP will not help. If you started with a character with all Vs in everything you’d still have bumbled around until you found exploration. Because that information was not in your knowledge set, it was not in your head. And giving you more SP almost surely would not have changed that.


(Keno Skir) #134

9 days training time off a month (a decent % of new players can save 200M in a month) is pretty much a third of the entire month, to state the obvious. That’s 30% faster training which is a LARGE time saver.

Consider that the vast majority of skills a new player has to train are under a day in length and you might notice how much 100K SP actually is to a new player.

I have taken the liberty of creating a list of potential skills that could be completed on a single small injector :

Navigation - LvL3
Mechanics - LvL3
Repair Systems - LvL3
Drones - LvL3
Drone Avionics - LvL3
Capacitor Systems Operation - LvL3
CPU Management - LvL3
Powergrid Management - LvL3
Leadership - LvL3
Gunnery - LvL3
Missile Launcher Operation - LvL3
Afterburner - LvL3
Infomorph Psychology - LvL2
Industry - LvL2
Rockets - LvL1
Mining - LvL1
Reprocessing - LvL1

That’s assuming starting with 0 skill in any of the above when you buy the injector. Sorry but this is more about new players thinking they need skills to 5 to be good. A new player can train shed loads of skills to 3 and be way ahead of someone who is not using their ISK for injectors. Please stop making out like 100k SP is nothing to a new player, it isn’t.


(Sindara T'Soni) #135

I still think 165m for any of the listed skills is too much of a dent in the fortunes of the average new player, and more importantly, as I keep saying (but people who choose not to listen to actual new players happily ignore) we don’t want / need to spend a large % of our total wealth on injectors because we are enjoying the ride as we go.

We are not locked into a desperate race to fly a Titan as soon as possible, because we are still enjoying our frigates / destroyers / cruisers / whatever.

Also, for the record, at just over 2 months old, I have every single one of the skills you listed at the level you listed or higher, no injectors needed, and many many other skills besides.

Easily forgotten when you are not genuinely new, is the fact that many of these skills unlock entirely new gameplay elements, which we then spend quite some time enjoying / exploring. When you assume that we are immediately looking to unlock something else with an injector as fast as possible, I’m afraid you assume wrongly, we are still browsing the market for all the new toys we can play with since that last skill completed.

All this speaking on behalf of new players is really pointless when it so woefully misrepresents them.


(Teckos Pech) #136

10 years on, me too. In fact, I don’t even own a capital ship anymore and I’m quite happy. Granted that is just me, and some players may want to get into one ASAP, but that ride should not involve too many short cuts or you could end up like the guy who bought a dread and died on a HS gate in LS with a ship that had zero modules fit to it.

I should hope so based on starting SP/skills. :stuck_out_tongue:

And training most of them to level 4 shouldn’t take too much longer than 3-4 weeks (assuming I did the math correctly). Again, assuming the math is correct, you could have 8 level 1 skills trained to V in about 2 months. By that time you should be reasonably on your way to an interceptor say.

Of course, I’d recommend that a player go out and learn how to fly small fast ships in cheaper T1 hulls vs. waiting for the interceptor and then losing an expensive ship and possibly having to go back to grinding ISK.


(Sindara T'Soni) #137

Exactly.

A lot of firepower in the hands of a person with little knowledge / experience is a dangerous thing for all the wrong reasons (why am I suddenly reminded of Donald Trump)

To give a good example from another game, I played For Honor for several months before getting a new PC and deciding to give EVE a whirl. In For Honor it was possible to AFK farm levels and gear. The people who did so were easy to spot from a mile away however, and were generally the laughing stock of the community. This was because while they were indeed max level with max gear, they couldn’t fight their way out of a paper bag. They knew nothing about dodging, countering, parrying or riposting. Too much progress too quickly with no knowledge. A recipe for disaster.

Assuming new players want to do this is quite frankly assuming new players are stupid.

Let us not confuse having skills with being skilled.


(Pieter Tuulinen) #138

It took me about three weeks to get into a decent frigate for Faction Warfare. I played intensively for about two years from that point and loved the game. What killed the game for me was the breakdown of the group I flew with for two years and my inability to find a new group that provided content that gave me the same feeling of enjoyment.

So, for me, the early part of the game wasn’t terrible.


(Keno Skir) #139
  1. I spend a decent amount of my total game time every week helping new players get to grips with EvE. I’d suggest i probably talk to more new players than most new or older players, and there are plenty of new players who are well up for spending their ISK on injectors. You should also bare in mind that many new players go straight to nulsec these days joining newbie friendly alliances like Brave or Karmafleet. These players are also “new players” and they should not be left out of your calculations. It’s pretty standard in nul these days for new players to salvage their way to their first couple of (large) injectors in the first week or two so they can more quickly become self sufficient.

  2. Please stop saying “we” and start saying “I” or it seems like you’re speaking for other new players also. I very much appreciate your input, but you do not speak for the group, and i have a huge amount of experience talking with new players who want exactly what you’re saying “we” don’t.

My point is that regardless what new players WANT, most don’t know what they NEED in order to enjoy a game that is unlike any they have played before.

It was stated that 100K SP is not a boost for a new player and I clearly demonstrated that it could be a huge boost. I’m not sure why you mention “needing” injectors as i never once even suggested it was a necessity, in fact I’m one one of the more vocal opponents of injectors in general.

That ^ is not true. In my experience most new players feel like they are useless until they unlock whatever skill they might be waiting for. Issue is once they get that skill it seems they still feel a bit useless until they get whatever they need after that. In my experience it takes some time in EvE before the the gameplay elements naturally take over from the feeling of waiting. It is however my experience that all these new players need is to be shown how they can be useful and have fun NOW and some of them stop the grinding and start the playing.

I respect your attitude to EvE Sindara, but you are incorrect to assume most other new players feel the same as you. This is coming from someone who has started a minimum of 100 conversations a week with “Hey, how are you finding EvE so far? Anything i can help with while i’m passing?” for the last 5 or 6 years.

:parrotmustache:


(Sindara T'Soni) #140

Wait … you are the guy that just made a list of the skills that could be bought with an injector. Sorry if I misunderstood, but I assumed you were trying to demonstrate how needed / useful / helpful they are. The accompanying text documenting what a great time saver they are and how much value 100k SP holds for a new player no doubt aided in that assumption.

To clarify my reply to you further, after presenting your list, you said:

So … do you not get the part where me saying I have all of those skills and more WITHOUT Injectors in 2 months kinda invalidates what you said?

Or are you now saying you didn’t mean any of the above?

Slightly confused I must say :thinking:


(Keno Skir) #141

It’s often helpful to read the thread you are replying to, rather than read a single statement and apply your own meaning to it. My opinion that skill injectors are a bad mechanic, does not negate the fact that 100K extra SP is big for a new player and can cover many skills.

No, and I’m struggling to imagine how you came to that conclusion. The fact you have those skills at 2 months old does not negate the fact that had you injected them all, you would be that much further ahead now. What i said was factual, not opinion. This is basic maths.

I meant all of it, you merely didn’t understand it.

That’s fine don’t worry yourself, hope i cleared everything up satisfactorily.


(Sindara T'Soni) #142

Not really, I think you’re just shifting the goalposts of your argument whenever there’s a comment that invalidates something you’ve just stated as ‘fact’.

It is a fact that skill injectors reduce training time for skills, yes, we all know that and you’re just being silly if you are now trying to say the whole debate is about whether that is a thing or not.

You talk to me about reading the whole thread? If you think for a second everything I have posted so far is an attempt to argue that skill injectors do not speed up the time it takes to learn a skill then you’re the one that needs a re-read. But I think you know better, and are just playing games to dodge around any valid counters to your comments.

I’ve made my point about new players and the ride they are on enough times already and what you are saying does not hold true, at least in my experience (and apparently the other genuine new guy in here who seems to think along similar line to me).

I don’t know how many actual new players it takes to stand up and say that you are misrepresenting them before you accept you might be, but it seems wrong to me that you can claim to know more about new players than the actual new players who post here to give their side of the story. I could be an exception, so could the other guy, but to me that just seems to be an easy ‘I win’ button you have created for yourself.

I know that is often how it works on these forums, I have seen pages of veterans pondering what new players want / need / expect / like / dislike, and as now, I have seen actual new players left out of the equation, because those veterans don’t actually want to know what new players think, they just want to be right about what they think new players want.

So you go ahead, you tell us what a group you don’t even represent wants, and don’t worry if anyone actually from that group says otherwise.

o7


(Keno Skir) #143

I stated One thing as “fact” :

The fact you have those skills at 2 months old does not negate the fact that had you injected them all, you would be that much further ahead now.

Please explain how that is not a fact, and i am shifting goalposts.

I guess quite a lot, to negate the approx 6 and a half thousand of them (20 a week is a very conservative estimate) i have contacted over these past years to specifically investigate what issues they might be experiencing.

I asked them what they want. Despite the fact i think you have a great attitude (to EvE, not discussion), the majority of new players i have spoken to disagree with you.