Delve, Goons and the MERs

Communications Center General Discussion
249

Actually the citadel and indy changes allow them to do what they always wanted to do which is properly setup in an area, they always wanted to do this. When they arrived in Delve they knew exactly what they were doing.

Well you can still play around it, as you said:

And I agree.

You understand it, but it is not quite this:

Yes the ISK and market is part of it, economic dominance and all that, but the military side is more important.
The reality is that it is the control of the production of Supers and Titans that will be the main objective, because that is what matters in terms of control of space. So the objective will be to remove the places to store them, Keepstars and more importantly the place to build them Sotiyo…

I don’t think it will kill the game, but it will turn Eve into more of a skirmish type game around an overbearing super power, who will gradually weaken through boredom. I am not that worried, but the jump clones will need to be looked at, perhaps a longer timer based on distance away from their jump clone.

I think the attempt to do it will create a lot of content and that is in affect good and it will take time to do, though they could do a headshot to speed it up, which is why the JC things needs to be looked at.

PS In an empire type game you always want to have someone wanting to win control, it makes it fun…

PPS Salvas you should read this EVE News24: The Galaxy's Most Resilient EVE Online News Site.

PPPS I am posting what I think the Goons are up too, fact is that I have no fears about playing around this, just like Mike, so troll posters like Jenn can rant all they want about me talking about it and suggesting that I am doom and gloom, for me the fun is them actually trying to do it.

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250

I’ve always been fascinated by doomsday stuff in real life. Lo and behold I come to a game where wondering when it’s going to all end (in game) turned into a meme lol.

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And you will continue to complain about it as you have for nearly a decade. Because you like having something to complain about or you wouldn’t have stuck around so much.

The last time I asked you had to be 5 or 6 years ago and you never answered, but I’ll ask again. What is the point of it all? Why are you perpetually frustrating yourself about what a small Icelandic game maker (with only 1 truly successful game to date) is or isn’t doing with a group of people who play the video game they make?

Personally I’m too busy shooting Goons in their virtual faces to worry about the stuff you go on about. You should try it.

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Lame, go and shoot Rorquals and Supers in Delve then boast about it…

253

I agree.

I think its time to disconnect Titan capable pilots from clone jumps/home station via x mechanic changes.

This is one of the few cases where Malcanis’ Law cannot be invoked as a rebuttal.

Admirable effort, but some losses are to be expected, and ~0.5 trillion is not significant compared to Goons/Delve isk/mining generation per month.

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What does it matter?

He has his reasons for continuing in EVE and his own meta, same as you.

Oh wow. You and 184 others exploded a Goon Loki.
Goons must be really worried about the stuff you are doing.
How did you ever find the time around your busy PvE schedule?
Did this dastardly Goon Loki try to invade your PvE site to deserve such a harsh reaction?

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257

Well… Talking about examples from RL i believe that something like 80-90% of USA army is outside of USA and paid to do stuff there in foreign countries which are “not related to USA”.

In age of global politics no places are “too far” to be relevant.

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Very good, but I would refer to that as Malcanis’ Razor, as there are some very broad circumstances in which it would not apply. There are probably some fundamental features about the game, based on assumptions about how the world works, that make this true in the cases where it is true. In the real world, even a million old sheep are no match for a wolf.

For some reason, I had it in my head that this was the inspiration for their icon: C.B.s

Why so?

I really think you’re boxing yourself in, here. The answer to bees is not more bees. Or, as Master Yoda might say, “To answer power with power is not the Jedi way.” lol

I would call that strategy. Goon leadership are good at strategizing. But strategies must be applied to opponents and circumstances. If they are applied to the wrong opponent and/or the wrong circumstance, it is trivial to make them fail.

The MER tells us the Goons are pursuing a strategy of resilience. There is a hard counter to resilience. I’ll leave it to Goonswarm’s enemies to figure out what it is . . . if they can.

259

How about this?
Because I can do more damage to the goons and their partners by posting on the forums than I ever can ingame. It may not be much on the forums, but it is something. Now, waiting for a goon-friendly ISD to shut me down.

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Or, ironically, your attempts to damage Goons could backfire. Have you considered that possibility?

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Malcanis’ generalized law is roughly:

  • In an open and classless game, any change meant to benefit one group will inevitably be used to greater advantage by older more established players.

That is, the older players can leverage the change more efficiently because of their higher level of human capital (understanding of the game and mechanics) and because of their access to in game resources (older players tend to be richer–see the human capital point for one reason why).

Malcanis’ conclusion, based on this law, is that CCP should not focus on making the game better for any subset of players, just make the game better.

Note: I don’t think Malcanis named the law, he merely articulated it…or more likely he articulated it in a very succinct and easy to understand way. Typically “Laws” are rarely named after the person who actually discovered said law…if you believe Stigler’s Law.

Stigler’s law of eponymy is a process proposed by University of Chicago statistics professor Stephen Stigler in his 1980 publication “Stigler’s law of eponymy”.[1] It states that no scientific discovery is named after its original discoverer. Examples include Hubble’s law which was derived by Georges Lemaître two years before Edwin Hubble, the Pythagorean theorem although it was known to Babylonian mathematicians before Pythagoras, and Halley’s comet which was observed by astronomers since at least 240 BC. Stigler himself named the sociologist Robert K. Merton as the discoverer of “Stigler’s law” to show that it follows its own decree, though the phenomenon had previously been noted by others.[2]

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Well, kind of. The US entered the war in Europe, after the Soviet Union had already turned the tide and was marching towards Germany. There was strong opposition in the US towards fighting against Germany. Ford and his gang are just one example. He did business with Nazigermany and later successfully sued the US government, because they forbade him to continue it.

The turning point was the battle of Kursk, after which it became clear that the Soviet Army will take Germany and end the war. This put an end to the stalemate in the US, albeit not for anti-fascist, but anti-communist reasons. They were afraid with the Soviets winning the war, Europe might become communist. So while Auschwitz wasn’t worth making the decision to fight, the fear of communism was.

And yet the simple soldier who fought or died on the side of any Allied Army deserves our respect, because it wasn’t her or his fault that the reaction came so very late.

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I wonder when Simbabwe and Luxemburg will finally send a peacekeeping mission to the US. So much violence there, I think Luxemburg and Simbabwe should finally take a heart, make themselves feel responsible and go bring peace to the streets of the US.

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It sounds like you were educated in a Soviet school where they teach that everything before Operation Barbarossa (like The Winter War) wasn’t WWII (so they don’t have to admit ever being on the same side as the NAZIs) and that the US didn’t enter the war until it was over. Here are some dates, including the battle of Kursk which you claim was the turning point:

1-Sep-1939 WWII begins
22-Jun-1941 Germany attacks USSR
7-Dec-1941 Japan attacks US
11-Dec-1941 Germany declares war on US
10-July-1943 US troops are in Italy
12-July-1943 The Battle of Kursk
6-June-1944 D-Day
27-Dec-1944 Battle of the bulge
11-Jan-1945 USSR takes Warsaw
7-May-1945 Germany surrenders

So yes, BOTH the Soviets and the US waited for two years (plus or minus a few months) to join the war against Germany. Auschwitz wasn’t enough for either of them. The difference being that before that the US was making money selling weapons to countries fighting the NAZIs and the Soviets were attacking countries that were fighting the NAZIs. In both cases it took a direct attack to get them to join the war: First Germany attacking the USSR. Second Japan attacking Pearl Harbour.

You claim that the US didn’t join until after the Soviet Union had turned the tide, and that that happened at the battle of Kursk. The battle of Kursk was 18 months after the US joined the fighting against Germany. It began (the Germans attacking) a week before there were US troops actually on land in Europe, the Soviet counter attack was two days after the US troops were already in Europe. If this was the turning of the tide, that would have been at the end of the battle of Kursk, which was over a month later. Also, almost two years later isn’t really what you expect from “it became clear that the Soviet Army would take Germany and end the war.” Hell, they didn’t even get to Warsaw until 18 months later.

Personally I would say it was clear only after the combined losses at the Battle of the bulge and Warsaw. And then four months later it was final.

I don’t know where this narrative that the US only joined the war after it was over comes from. I could understand it from the Poles, Brits, or French (and others) who were fighting against Germany since 1939, but not from the Soviets who joined the fight almost 2 years later and only 6 months before the US.

Anyway, this is way off-topic. Also, Godwin’s law.

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Uh, sure…that is what always happens when one works to keep corruption in the forefront. Now, based solely on the activity level on the forums compared to five years ago, a much smaller fraction of players read these official CCP run forums. So the message is seen by a smaller fraction of the player base.

But if even one person is educated about the ongoing situation with Eve, goons, and CCP, it is worth it.

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Better name would have been Malcanis’ Paradox.

Anyways, if Goons can do this in Delve, there is no reason other orgs cant do the same in their own space (and SHOULD be doing so).

Unfortunately, that would also mean even more isk/material generation.

Isk economy may be able to sustain Goons for now, and they are using all their resources locally rather than selling them.

But if we add 2-3 more regions generating as much isk/materials, there will be problems.

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The turning point of World War II was the Battle of Midway.

“We might be through with the past, but the past ain’t through with us.”

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WWII has turning points by the dozen.

I only raised the WWII example as a comparison to Goons going full war economy.
If we are going to talk WWII lets at least try to connect it to EVE somehow.

As to the Battle of Midway, it is a minute possibility one grand fleet will be as severely wrecked as then, but in EVE its far easier to retreat/disengage, and intelligence is far more widespread and efficient than what US/Japan had at Midway.

Having said that, “accidents” of various types have a way of escalating into huge fleet battles in EVE. Arguably the majority of such battles have infact started by someone screwing up and causing a cascading chain of events.

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EVE just doesnt mechanically much allow for asymmetric warfare.
Titan/Cap proliferation must be met with the same.

Sure, there is strategy involved, but mostly just for positioning/timing.
The actual battles are mostly determined by overwhelming force.

The answer to Goons building massive amounts of caps/titans, is building them yourself too.

This is nonsense.

Making Goons “fail” is never a trivial matter.

No, they are pursuing a strategy of building overwhelming consolidated force, supported by sufficient resources to replace losses, and fortification of systems.

Delve is, for all intent and purpose, already militarily impregnable.
The same cannot be said of their neighbors systems, and divided, they cant match what Goons will throw at them on border fronts once they start outwards, unless they mobilize ALL of it to contain Goons.

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Why?

Why?

Why?

Why?

If your description of their behavior is accurate, then Goonswarm would seem to disagree with you. If they are preparing to replace losses, then they are preparing to withstand failure. If they are fortifying, then they are preparing to be unable to keep others out of their space. Otherwise, they wouldn’t need fortifications. They are preparing for short term failure in pursuit of their long term goals. That is a strategy of resilience.

Much to learn, have you.

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