Delve, Goons and the MERs

Communications Center General Discussion
84

227 trillion import value into a single player region over 3 months, is, afaik, unprecedented, by far.
MER Delve bounties also, afaik, are unprecedented, by far.
Delve exports almost nothing,

All this, from one player region, held entirely by one coherent organisation.

Goons are:

  • Fortifying the hell out of Fortress Delve
  • Producing caps at unprecedented rates.
  • Reshipping into T2/T3 fleet doctrines and sufficient reserve stockpiles.
  • Post-renter empire/coalition, realized they cant rely on anyone else, than themselves.
  • Recognized that their antagonists are more populous, but also de-centralized and under-funded/under-supported per player.
  • Recognized they are better off with reliable loyal, trained core fleets supplied with T2/T3 ships, supported by and in support of as many caps as they can field.
  • Stockpiling huge reserves of isk, cos if you cant beat them, you can buy them out instead.

In historical parallel, its similar to 1930’s Germany, angered by their defeat and betrayal by allies in WWI (as Goons lost their Empire), re-arming in secret with cutting-edge military tech/doctrines, exporting nothing and utilizing all domestic product + imports, paying your own in massive social/economic projects (ie: sourcing both Delve and non-Delve materials), in preparation of exploding outwards against divided enemies on all sides before they have opportunity to mobilise/consolidate their forces and/or allies.

Nazis sourced their cash from confiscation of assets from “undesirables”.
Goons dont have to do that.
They earn tremendous isk revenue from intensive Delve local ratting.

The political meta is also similar to the historical context.
Everyone is content to let Goons consolidate Delve.
At first, they will probably diplomatically annex their neighbors, either with cash or other non-aggressive means, thus establishing contact with the borders of their real rivals, thus adding auxiliary forces to their Axis.

Per the historical example of Molotov-Ribbentrop, they will probably also make a deal with another power to both aggress on a mutual enemy, from both sides. And also, per that example, be the first to break that agreement.

Per the historical example of Dunkirk, they will probably allow one neighboring power to withdraw from the conflict, in the hopes they dont antagonize them enough to stand down and let Goons expand elsewhere.

Per the example of Nazis allying with Japan and declaring war on the US, that was a mistake, from which Goons can learn. Never underestimate how far a distant power can project their economic/military power. You dont need that trouble.

Goons as Third Reich in EVE?
I doubt that would come as a surprise to anyone, unless you dont see whats happening.
Hell, they might even manage it as long as they dont push too far towards Moscow, and get out of Stalingrad before they are encircled, as that translates into EVE.

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85

Who might be these “russians of Eve”

86

Uhm history is that the specific nation allied with one of their core enemies and two political cosystems.

89

Simply have to admire one thing about the OP, no matter how many times his story is shot to pieces (proven to be false, or at best exaggerated) he just keeps coming back.

I have a question though.
If Goons did indeed spend (via imports) roughly 203.31 trillion over 3 months more than they made in income - How long will it be before Goons run out of isk?
How much isk do they have stockpiled so as to afford to lose 67.77 trillion per month?

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90

Teckos, I don’t think you have to justify the Goons economic superiority or try to defend against a nerf to say the Rorqual again, because in affect the Rorqual nerf will just kill those trying to up their game in response, such as Test and CCP would be foolish to go after balanced areas of the game just because people are good at it. In fact like many people I am watching Goons with a certain admiration and respect, but also noting their weaknesses which I have noticed that they are working on.

I am waiting for the Goons to start dropping Keepstars in strategic places, that will be when the fun really starts…

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91

Which nation are you referring to?
Do you mean the Allies joining with the Soviets?

92

I suppose in this context, any empire that is too deep to conquer and hold in a single campaign.

Aside from that, in EVE everybody knows not to ■■■■ with the Russians :smiley:

93

Franco and Mussolini allied with Germany also Stalin being this in the beginning of WW2.

94

Germany didnt ally with Soviets.
They secretly agreed to divide East Europe.

Its the Allies that later, well, allied with the Soviets.

95

And Franco avoided being militarily aligned with Germany and so stayed out of the war.

1 Like
96

It would be interesting to know who in current EvE might be it.

97

I hear its becuase they are rebuilding titan fleet and they are abit low on them

98

Dunno. I think though that even Goons know to not anger Rus-space, and leave them to their own devices and in-fighting. Nobody wants that kind of trouble.

They took some heavy losses, and I think where surprised how many caps/titans randomly showed up from such loosely organised antagonist orgs.

In anycase, the import value vs export value indicates enormous building in Delve.

99

Salvos,

I think you are correct after thinking about this for a few days on vacation. My mistake was not considering all aspects of the transactions and so yes, a goon buy raw materials/intermediate goods and combining them into another good would mean that the net import figure is higher than what Goons have spent. I apologize to you unreservedly.

I still maintain that the qualitative aspects of my OP are true. That Goons spend far, far more than they collect in ratting income in Delve. Even in the extreme case of Goons adding 100% value to the products they purchase (highly unlikely) and they do this for everything imported into Delve (also highly unlikely) the ISK spent by Goons is approximately 113.5 Trillion ISK. This is extremely unlikely in that it first implies Goons by absolutely zero finished goods which is unlikely given all the named modules Goons use in their doctrine fleets. It is also unlikely that Goons are going to find it considerably more cost effective to buy the raw/intermediate goods and build many T1 modules. As such it is more likely that Goons are spending well above the 113.5 Trillion ISK. Probably closer to 200 Trillion ISK and probably above that. For example, assuming the value added is 25% (still a very high amount especially for just about anything that is T1) then the amount of Goon spending is 181.6 Trillion ISK and again that is assuming Goons import zero finished goods. Assuming Goons import 50% finished goods made by others and finished goods they themselves made then we are talking about 204 Trillion ISK (using the same 25% value added assumption).

Total ratting ISK for the last three months is 26.8 trillion ISK which is a fraction of the ISK Goons import into Delve. Even to get the amount of ISK Goons import down to 26.8 Trillion and making the heroic assumption Goons build everything they import we’d need a value added ratio of 747% which is pretty unbelievable. This means that Goons have either found a means of production that is massively more efficient than anything else in game. Or it means that every other player in the game is leaving a massive amounts of ISK on the table for Goons to take. I find neither of these possibilities even remotely possible.

So, yes, that 227 is “too large” but it is still massive…so massive that for the same time period Goons have spent at least 338% more ISK that has flowed into mostly non-Goon wallets than was earned in ISK bounties, and the number is probably closer to 700% or more. The fact of the matter is that due to the fungible nature of ISK, all of that ratting money has pretty much left Delve and gone out into the wider New Eden economy plus considerably more.

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101

Teckos,

  1. Thank you for the civil post. No apology necessary, but is appreciated. I wasnt harmed except by the occasional high blood pressure spike, which I’m sure you got as well. You and I approach issues from very different paradigms, so its inevitable we will be at logger heads, misunderstand each other and get frustrated. I love every minute of it. Great forum content that keeps both our edges honed. I havent kept exact count, but I think I owe you 4 shots, to your 2, should we ever meet.

  2. I agree that Goons have almost certainly paid the total equivalent isk value of their bounties from Delve in the last 3 months into non-Goon pockets during the same period. My contention was that of Goon payouts to non-Goons equaling their import value, for reasons we both recognize now.

  3. To my knowledge, this rate of import vs export value, and isk raised/mining/production, from one player region of EVE, for this long, is unprecedented. Something really big is happening in Delve, and it is very well orchestrated, not to mention they’ve managed to retain OPSEC.

  4. For fun: It is speculated that the Palatine costs ~200trillion isk. It would fit Goon vanity, their penchant for game “firsts”, and be the shining jewel/HQ of their new home, Fortress Delve. The envy of the universe. Is there some Goon anniversary coming up soonish? Raising a Palatine Capital/HQ in Delve would be a hell of a way to celebrate/mark the day in EVE history. Although unlikely, the 227trillion import value in the last months, if truly they managed to re-tool the entire org towards this goal, could have gone towards a Palatine which may already be very near to completion.

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102

PS: Goons/Delve isk generation via bounties is so pronounced, they have the enviable, but contrary impetus of spending as little isk on the market to non-Goons as possible. The longer they can keep that isk off the market, the better for Goons. Its a Scrooge McDuck problem. Every isk they pay out from the isk they have and continue to generate, leads to de-valueing of the rest of their isk.

PPS: In other words, Goons are getting so fantastically rich, that they can no longer afford to pay with isk to non-Goons. Suddenly, every isk counts, cos paying out even one isk means the rest of their isk wealth is devalued.

103

I had not thought about the Palatine as the goon goal, but yeah, that makes perfect sense. CCP never assumed Titans would end up being parked in every null sec player’s garage, but he we are. CCP never thought people would permanently inhabit wormholes, but now we have Hard Knocks industrializing the whole place.

So yeah, I can’t doubt the goons are building the unbuildable. Heck, they can only RMT so much ISK, so they have to do something with the surplus.

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104

The 227trillion import+ local figure is tantalizingly close to the estimated cost of a Palatine at ~200 trillion.

Would fit Goon character to be the first to build one, especially as a giant middle finger (like Sauron’s Eye) in the center of Fortress Delve to aggravate everyone else.

105

Reading these threads piut a eye opener on the greater pichure of eve, so far im loving this dabate.

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No one is Buying stuff in Jita, building stuff out of it, then importing to Delve. Do you guys even ■■■■■■■ industry?

Pretty much every single manufacture process or isk concentration process decreases ISK/M3 density… This makes hauling logistics even more tedious and costly. It also circumvents the null sec ME and TE bonuses… No one is doing this.

For example Reaction Materials, the Raw Moon Goo is some of the highest ISK/m3 density in the game. We are talking 20,000 - 1,000,000 ISK/m3+

Building anything in Highsec and importing to Delve is bat ■■■■ stupid. Even Macharials are only 40,000 ISK/m3. When you consider what is unable to be built and sourced in Delve, you come up with some simple answers.

Faction Ship BPCs
Deadspace/Faction Mods
Regional Moon Goo
Regional Ice

Also as Rhivre points out below, all of the people that fly to delve for PVP and die count as imports.