the point is still inconsistency and retardness by ccp
Yup. I was agreeing with you.
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This whole kerfuffling is great! 
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Having a focus group is a good thing. But the current focus group is picked 80-90% from actual minority of players. There are a couple of them that do make good efforts and have been around all areas of Eve to have some fair ideas, but there are too many that are tunneled. So complete restructuring from the ground up would be a good thing.
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There is much more to it then that and its complicated. According to the EULA all this stuff falls under laws of Iceland, however, according to USA laws Brisc is a known public figure and as such in order to make any successful libel slander claims he has to prove malice on part of CCP beyond any reasonable doubt. Which means that even if CCP was mistaken and this is all a resort of their error out of being plainly dumb or incompetent, it still won’t stick. I am completely unfamiliar with Iceland or international laws regarding this sort of thing so can’t really develop a decent opinion in one direction or the other.
Far more of them have a much broader range of experience and knowledge than you seem aware of, and easily 9 of the 10 ‘make good efforts’. They just don’t (and, to a large degree, can’t because of the NDA) tell you which things are theirs.
Basically, the structure of the CSM right now is that if good things happen, CCP takes credit. If bad things happen, CCP will blame the CSM. Watch for it this time, too. If they wind up having to retract any part of their statement, they’re gonna play it as ‘It’s totally the CSM’s fault we didn’t do due diligence, conduct a thorough investigation, or consult with our own legal department before doing this’.
And a lot of players will believe that. #1 rant on /r/eve will be about how the evil goonies and their CSM kept CCP from doing their jobs and forced them into making a foolish statement, so this proves the CSM should be abolished.
Well that’s your own doing, as you well know. Maybe if your group hadn’t spent years forging a certain reputation, and saying horrendous ■■■■ like “we’re not here to ruin the game, we’re here to ruin your game”, talking about making CCP folk ‘bend the knee’ and so on, this wouldn’t be the case.
This you can’t blame CCP or /r/eve for. It’s a self-inflicted shotgun wound to the face at this point.
Yes, Teh Ebul Goonies™ can force CCP to make public statements and ignore decent corporate practices in order to further the words of a former CCP dev who hasn’t been in Goons for almost 5 years, and hadn’t been in charge for at least as long when he left.
I don’t blame /r/EVE for the utter gullibility and confirmation bias out there. I blame the gullible who stop looking at actual data and start letting that confirmation bias drive their perception of everything. And that same confirmation bias keeps telling them they’re right to fall for it, so I keep getting to mock them for it. Learn to recognize that mockery and scorn in advance of predictable stupidity for what it is.
Non-sequiteurs much? I don’t particularly care about this particular subject, but if you can’t see why it’s your own damn fault your behaviour created a reputation, I can’t really help I suspect.
Not one at all. I made an observation about the CSM, and how the way CCP has their communications limited is pretty much structured to make the CSM look bad, then predicted that they’d cast the CSM as the problem in this case, too, and that large chunks of the players would eat that right up because they’re idiots and it feeds into their confirmation bias.
Which you then seemingly took to be complaining about our reputation… which is laughable on the face of it, but it’s just as predictable a response from you, so I clarified. And you, now, are repeating the assertion that you ‘don’t particularly care about’, even though my statements weren’t about our reputation at all, they were about the utter stupidity of people who let confirmation bias trump the actual facts. So, no, no non-sequiteurs whatsoever. Just someone ignoring what was actually said, so they can feed their confirmation bias.
Wow that’s nicely Trumpian. You’re complaining that people will distrust your group, lay blame at your feet and other people will believe this, but this is somehow unreasonable, is it? After all these years of your group creating the reputation it has, in the words of its leaders through the actions of the collective, you feel this isn’t relevant? You want to cry about “confirmation bias” when in reality it’s just perfectly reasonable suspicions based on a decade of Goon behaviour?
You are in effect complaining that your behaviour has made large swathes of people distrust you. You’re ranting about /r/eve when your group has gone out of its way to attack it repeatedly and even claimed it’s “not a community” and so on. Why are you expecting these people to trust you when you went out of your way to make enemies out of them, over the course of years?
This isn’t a matter of confirmation bias. This is Goons reaping what they sow. That you need to ramble about “trumping the facts” instead of maybe stepping back a bit and acknowledging the metric crapton of work you lot put into creating the “us vs them” narrative and divide, and making enemies of everyone who weren’t in your pocket is kind of telling really.
Your lot did throw around language like “making CCP bend the knee”, trying very hard to discount real communities, forging an identity around ruining other people’s game and so on. Can you really sit there and say that people keeping that in mind is just confirmation bias?
You made the bed and then you shat in it. Maybe deal with that instead of pretending really hard it doesn’t smell?
Well, except I’m not complaining about that at all. In fact, I’m not complaining at all. People can trust or distrust whoever they feel appropriate. I’m just predicting how this plays out: CCP will throw the CSM under the bus, and people will eat it up. But you go ahead and keep on raging into the void there, Miz. It’s all you do. As I’ve said in other threads, I’m done joining in your wallow.
Yeah, I mean rambling incoherently about confirmation bias, and being called on it is certainly “just” that.
But sure, retreat into trying to devalue the speaker rather than what was said. I guess that’s all you’ve got going for that.
You know that under PA CCP will have to break you, PA own this game and cant lose face because of saboteurs
It will be
Let’s remember that EITHER Brisc & friends are guilty OR other(s) member(s) of the CSM deserve a kick & ban. That, at least, we know from what has been clearly stated by CCP. If the CSM, already highly controversial for many players, can’t behave, one should not expect its profile to improve after this.
If this incident turns out to be a death sentence for the CSM, that is more a suicide than anything else.
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Well, let’s look at what’s been ‘clearly stated by CCP’ about that:
and
Now, I don’t know about you, but ‘an immediate threat to the integrity of the CSM as an institution’ is kind of ridiculous. We have good reason to believe Manny was kicked for leaking info about the capital changes—literally leaking information that significantly impacted and directly concerned the active gameplay of thousands of people, and, through indirect effects, influenced pretty much the whole landscape of low- and null-sec. That was never seen as any kind of ‘immediate threat to the integrity of the CSM as an institution’. Manny’s removal certainly was never presented to us as a result of some immediate threat like that, and it’s not like anyone got prohibited from acting on what they learned, either.
But now this now-questionable offense involves all of 1 person making money in-game. One.
1 person making some ISK once is suddenly an ‘immediate threat to the integrity of the CSM as an institution’? I’m not sure I buy that, and I’m more skeptical of the idea that the other CSM members framed it that way. But for now, let’s put a pin in that and look at what else we can glean from the devblogs.
We know this happened in Iceland—that’s why electronics aren’t being allowed in the room at the Summit anymore. We also know it’s something the other CSM were aware of, and that Brisc clearly didn’t know WTF the problem was until he got some context and found out who the other people were. So whatever conversation happened that constituted the leak, it probably happened more or less in front of the other CSM.
Knowing the CSM members that I do (including Aryth, Innominate, Jin’taan, and Sort), if that’s the case, they probably told him ‘that ain’t cool, knock it the f*ck off’ right then and there, and likely told Falcon and Guard about it right off. That’d be why Brisc both didn’t inititally know WTF, and why he clued in quickly: it’d be something he would have figured had already been dealt with. The rest of the CSM sure as hell wouldn’t have waited a month and a half. (Summit: Feb 18-21. Initial DevBlog: May 8.)
They wouldn’t have let this sit through EVEsterdam, either: Not only is there too much chance that something gets out amidst a bunch of people drinking, but let’s face it, the guy who’s got the most experience in community relations, ban enforcement, and pretty much ever other aspect of how to handle this is leaving the company shortly after EVEsterdam, and they know it (they got told when they got to Iceland).
The way I read the tea leaves is that the CSM went home, had some time to think about what happened, talked amongst themselves, then after EVEsterdam came back to CCP and said something along the lines of ‘hey, we’ve been talking about the whole Brisc talking to Pando thing, can we take steps in the future to prevent this kind of f*ckup from happening in the future? Maybe put some formal rules in place?’
And then CCP loses their goddamned minds. Because, again, the guy with the history of level-headed consideration and moderation just left. And that’s not a slam on Dopamine, either. He hasn’t had to deal with this kind of public-facing role before. And as I’ve said on similar topics: it’s a lot easier to come down a bit too hard initially and then back off than it is to levy punishment and then turn around and say ‘screw it, we’re gonna hit you again’.
Handled properly, with clarifications (and, if Brisc is determined not to have actually violated the NDA or whatever, an apology) and some measure of ‘ok, here’s the process of how it should’ve happened, and here’s how that process broke down. We’ll do better’, this blows over. Because clearly, the process did break down. You don’t go handing out judgment and making public statements, and then substantiate your evidence during a ‘follow-up investigation’. The investigation’s supposed to happen first, you know? But everyone involved is human, and feces occurs.
But I don’t think CCP’s going to make that kind of statement. I don’t think they’re going to accept any responsibility for fat-fingering how this was handled. I think they’re going to blame a bunch of people who have put in a hell of a lot of hours, including getting stuck in a conference room in Iceland for a week twice a year, trying to make the game better, and help CCP avoid stepping on rakes, and hope whatever torches and pitchforks are out there wind up aimed at the CSM.
EDIT for clarity: ‘Brisc talking to Pando thing’. The reason I phrase it like this is Pando’s broke. Pando’s always broke. Pando doesn’t do market shenanigans, and doesn’t have ISK. He just wants to fly. So of the two people who’ve been ID’d with Brisc, Pando wasn’t the one making the money, so he had to be the one Brisc said something to that CCP is getting bent out of shape over.
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Yeah, I’m kind of having the same thoughts about the incident. Only thing to add is that Brisc had to leave the Summit early and I wondered if he was keeping up via telephone or other means during his trip to the airport and waiting for his flight. Perhaps this information was either saved or overheard, resulting in the incident. Only problem with this addition is that only PLEX pricing and future skin availability was discussed in regards to market issues (iirc), neither issue should have taken a crystal ball or inside information to realize where they were heading in the future.
Guessing either an early afternoon Thursday or Friday morning announcement; enough time to have people on hand to observe and mitigate some of chaos, but a shorter time before they can let things percolate during a weekend. Going to be an interesting time to be playing EVE…
I don’t disagree with your assessment and your scenario is one of the likely ones. Likewise, I totally agree that CCP acted very stupidly here. A dumb and heavy handed public move if there ever was one, especially if they decide to backtrack.
My comment was more about the CSM itself as a whole. Let’s be real here, these guys aren’t tortured in that conference room, they are not sacrificing themselves for the greater good. They are just video game players who aimed for one of the highest recognition possible in that game, who enjoy the trip and discussions, who campaigned hard to be there in possibly rigged elections (yet another mini-drama). Their dedication and involvement is commendable, yes, but not a sacrifice.
And don’t get me wrong, I’ve read the minutes for the last 3-4 years and appreciate their input on game mechanics.
But, if the “everyone is a bit guilty, but it was all in good faith, and CCP went crazy” scenario you have given us is valid, it just shows one thing, that the CSM (some of its members at least) considers itself to be the equivalent of an old boy’s club and that its members deserve special privileges and treatment and be given a pass when ■■■■ hits the fan. Politicians, warriors and, industrialists indifferent to the plebs. Don’t expect the pleb to mourn its eventual demise.
And I am not anti-CSM, guys like Steve Ronuken and Suitonia have been real assets to the community and the game as a whole. And, on top of that, I liked the way Brisc contributed here and would probably even have voted for him in a new election.
It’s not that binary.
The other members of the CSM may have been acting in good faith (possibly not also) and whoever made the determination that Brisc “has been found to be sharing confidential information”, may have been following a flawed process, or just f’d up if the original finding is changed.
There’s several possibilities.
Do they actually fly the csm out to iceland?