[Devblog] The Future of Force Projection Feedback Thread

I will keep posting this until you read it. You still dont understand any of how 0.0 works.

Its seems like the main issue is that some of you have 0 idea about how SOV works.

Our belowed developers made it so that you NEED to have USELESS space to have USEFUL space.
As long as you dont understand this. Or that fact that everything is tied to a TIMER. You will have delusions about what this change will bring or aimed at.

Defending SOV have nothing to do with Power Projection but overall Power of a coalition or alliance. JBs have nothing to do with meeting the TIMERs of either the Infrastructures or the SOV itself. This will no way help anyone grab space from larger organisations.

There is no space to grab. The empty system no one uses is empty because it is USELESS. That system have its resources rerouted to another system that can in this way holster an upgrade that is USEFUL. An un upgraded system is in fact in the current game state is USELESS.

If you undesrtand this. You will understand that this change serves one purpose. To generate content for cloaky camper and roaming fleets by limiting response time. Who wouldnt want to steal 300m from an ESS because there no way to respond in 5 minutes to 10-20 man filamenting in fits made to fight in an ESS versus that 5 player who can actually use 1 system out of the 5 nearby because power/manpower had to be routed away and half the systems are USELESS.

I will go over the Power Projection part again because there seems to be myths around how attacking or defending works.

When you attack. You build a FOB at the enemy border. And you attack fro mthe FOB. There are 0 JBs involved in an attack. Everyone will move ships with capitals/JFs.

When you defend. You defend TIMERS. TIMERS that you can make to with either normal gates or Titan bridges or anything but a JB.

Understanding this. We can see that the only thing they nerf with this is response time to thiefes in ESS since all mining is already centralised under capital umbrella anyways. And day to day travel but that wont be affected as its not a large number of ships moving at once.

:rofl: then stop whining, if you are right and nothing will happen, you have nothing to fear I guess. Rest assured, CCP/FC will find another screw to tighten up then. And another. And another. Until it works.

Having defended lots of stations that weren’t accessible easily for a large fleet by just taking a few ansiblexes but required to move whole fleets dozens over dozens of jumps manually, then realizing no attacker will show up and then manually moving back dozens over dozens of jumps manually just to read the same CTA 2 days later because the station had been reinforced again makes me guess that at some point alliance leadership will either have problems filling fleets with people spending a whole evening travelling for absolutely nothing just to save a totally unimportant Astra of 3-4 ratters OR they will come to the conclusion themselves to simply not defend that crap any more and let it die (or unanchor it or sell it) to someone who wants to bother with that unimportant remote system. And at this point the first goal is reached, it isn’t that alliances system any more.

And you think someone will spend up to 2-3 hours every day reinforcing structures that lead nowhere? Why do you assume block line members will give up before the attackers do?

There is a reason no one does this and its not jump bridges. But because it leads no where. Even if a block decides to let it go down the next day they can anchor 5000 new one if they wish for.

Again it comes down to fundamental misunderstanding of how 0.0 Blocks and SOV interact and then how these systems interact with outsiders.

We still at a point where you dont realise this patch is a hoax.

It is not aimed at Power Projection.
It is not aimed at smaller alliances having it better.
It is not aimed at reducing stagnation.
It will make it easier for ESS pirates to steal and cloaky campers on jump bridges to get free kills. Neither is the intended outcome or what they say they want to achieve.

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I like the meme, but as part of one of those ‘small independent alliances’ I’ll answer no to three of their four questions. I only occasionally use allied ansiblexes when I make larger trips, but can do without.

The main problem I see with locking ansiblexes to alliance-only is that this is another encouragement for players to join only the largest alliances which have the infrastructure, not a smaller group with it’s own identity.

This change is going to make largest alliances grow even more, and I don’t think that is something the game needs.

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Sure, first it doesn’t take 2-3 hours to reinforce a station with adequate force and second it does lead somewhere: forcing the bloc into huge effort of a lot of people if he wants to hold that system. To the point where leadership really has to evaluate if that remote system is really worth all that effort.

As long as the bloc doesn’t leave lots of people there permanently, the attackers can simply log out in there or just a few systems away. Their effort is way less to keep reinforcing structures there. They can play this game quite a while. Currently nobody is doing that because if you show up with a force significant enough to reinforce structures rather quickly, one of two things will happen: Either the main staging fleet arrives in time with numbers to prevent the reinforcement alltogether. Or at the resulting timer they will be there with a 100% certainty. Because they can easily come over, wait 15min until the timer is saved and then be back in their main staging without much effort or inconvenience. And exactly that changes if instatraveling over large geographical areas is nerfed enough.

I do even agree that this first step will achieve close to nothing. The blocs will find ways around that. But it’s only the first step. Hopefully CCP/FC will watch how the blocs react and tighten the screws there too until they see the results they want.

What do you think is an “adequate force” 10-20-50? or “required time” to daily reinforce stuctures in 0.0?
Why do you assume attackers wont have to move a multitude of jumps to get to the target? Or do you assume they log off after they reinforced something?

Brother you need to think. Attackers dont just spawn a force that instantly reinfoce structures.
It takes 30 minutes minimum to reinfoce a citadel. DETAILS man…

I’m not sure what the end game is here.

forward planning.

After reviewing both the devblog and a lot of the feedback about it both here and on Reddit, I tend to agree that this will be one of several second-order effects of the ACL change.

That said, while the change will negatively impact me (to a small degree), I’m not terribly salty, except on the popcorn I’ll be enjoying while watching this boondoggle unfold.

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That’s the spirit! Make a declining, 20+ year old, already niche game even less popular, by driving out even more players from pure spite. That’s gonna put the screws to FC alright!
:roll_eyes:

They wont, will take too long now… which is kinda the point…

This is a complex issue and one which needs addressing. I’ve been hesitant to post about this, partially because I feel it’s a waste of time. But I think this needs saying so screw it here goes.

I’ve seen a lot of people comparing these changes to the phoebe jump fatigue changes. As I was pretty intimately involved in the alliance some would argue those nerfs were specifically targeted against, and probably had a hand in making those nerfs happen in the first place, I want to compare them to make my argument.

I want to start by saying it is my belief that projection pre-jump fatigue was actually significantly less broken than it is now. I also think the changes made in Phoebe went too far. I don’t think anyone could argue something needed to be done back then, but the changes that were made in Phoebe were more far-reaching, specifically targeted, and completely shut down the mechanics PL were using as force projection tools.

Compare that to today with the ansiblex changes. Ansiblexes will still be here, they will still allow long range movement over huge areas of the map, and many of the larger alliances have somehow managed to dodge the major changes in favour of nerfing the smaller ones in the form of ACL removal. To put it bluntly, the proposed changes to ansiblexes are not far reaching, not targeted at large alliances, and will not shut down the kind of large scale projection FC hope they will to anything but a negligible degree.

Phoebe actually had two very specific nerfs to prevent projection. Everyone talks about jump fatigue. The game hadn’t had jump fatigue for 12 years up to that point. It wasn’t just fast jumping that PL exploited. Everyone could do that, and many did.

What PL implemented was a network of corporate offices in NPC stations spread in a web which could connect any region to any other region through cyno chains. Then use those corp offices to rapidly place cyno chains anywhere across the map. That’s why I say it was targeted. Phoebe removed the ability, quietly, to deathclone to ANY corp office. The reason for this is I, amongst others, spent an inordinate amount of time and effort seeding cyno ships and corp offices in every NPC station we could possibly get our hands on that might possibly be used as a link in a cyno chain to anywhere. Then anyone with a character in our cyno corp could deathclone to that office, pick up a cyno ship, and light a cyno within seconds. We spent a LOT of isk doing this, our corp office bill was astronomical. The corp we used I founded, it was called backuplegion.

Nobody else even tried to do it, it was incredibly tryhard, and CCP categorically shut down any chance of using those mechanics to any effect. It destroyed that method of projection.

Comparing these changes to Phoebe is comparing a fart to a hurricane. Comparing the ease of setting up an ansiblex network then setting your autopilot to the high effort, pre-emptive planning and execution it took to set up fury road then use it effectively without dying in a fire every time is a joke.

Ansiblexes are so easy to set up and use, you generally have structures in every system with an ansiblex in them. It’s easier and safer than gating, and even with the changes, the only people who are going to be significantly effected by them are small alliances with blues. Unless the capacitor requirements for use are set so high as to make long distance high volume travel completely impractical unless carried out over DAYS or more, you might as well not even bother.

And the projection issue is STILL going to be significantly worse than pre-phoebe mechanics.

Okami says in his blog that he considered the idea of removing ansiblex altogether. Why not? Do you think it would cause too many people to unsub? To put it bluntly, this game is stagnating. It’s getting boring, people are sick of N+1 fights where 600 idiots in anything from battleships to svipuls showing up on your doorstep in 20 minutes and ruining any chance for an engaging fight to happen by brainlessly killing everyone. Something drastic needs to be done, and the only people these changes, in principle, are going to drastically effect, are the smaller groups without the sprawling sov capable of supporting massive ansiblex networks. Those groups can and will adapt to this very quickly. Smaller groups will just be stuck in their own pockets of space, without the ‘lever’ of political intrigue that eve is so famous for which makes them capable of moving around being available to them any more.

As a side note, I think the capacitor thing is clunky as hell. I think similar things could have been achieved through workforce management being tied to ansiblex efficacy but im not a dev so I can’t be too critical. It just feels like another patched on gimmick to a system that doesn’t really work properly in the first place.

I could go on, but I won’t. In short, these proposed changes are probably going to end up doing the opposite of what FC claims to want to do, and have dangerous potential to make things significantly worse, not better. Removing ansiblexes altogether would have been a better step, and while it would have been more drastic for some, it would have been no more drastic for the smaller groups which FC and the null CSM members (who all seem to be in large null alliances btw, funny that) claim to champion.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.

E: I forgot to mention the absolute elephant in the room. Alpha accounts. There is absolutely nothing stopping these large blocs from staging fleets of alpha accounts at the peripheries of their space in strategic locations, they already do it. Nothing says ‘were nerfing projection’ more than 200 dudes in alpha maelstroms showing up and glassing your 40 man sov warfare fleet 3 regions away from an alliances capital system. Mark my words, unless you remove the ability for these empires to sprawl, they WILL find a way to circumvent it like this. The only way to do that is to drastically curtail the utility ansiblex have for the average member to use them. These changes don’t do that at all.

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There is no reason to argue over details if the scale of what CCP/FC wants to achieve in the end isn’t even clear.
Fact is, the goal is to prevent a main staging fleet move to one side of a huge “sov” area defending there and then being conveniently back or at some other edge of a huge “sov” area just half an hour later. What is not to understand there?
Yeah, more future steps may be nessessary but if you slow down the blob significantly simple logic dictates that this will open gaps for attackers to poke without the main standing fleet being able to intercept them. At least not everywhere at once and not easily and conveniently.
Line members will pretty quickly lose motivation to chase ghosts all the time because the blob will always come too late to any action too far away from the main staging system. So border systems will come under pressure, one way or another.
And either the alliance give them up sooner or later and hand them over to someone else who is willing to live and defend locally or the effort to hold them will outweight the benefits from holding the system by constantly moving back and forth large armies manually. Good luck keeping the tensions under control if the average F1 joe begins to ask why he should waste 2x2 hours per week jumping his goddamn battleship 30 gates back and forth to keep some unimportant border system claimed, while he could just rat or mine in that time.

That no block have to do any of that. We have 3 gige blocks. That arent actively trying to take space from one another. This change will not make us suddenly jump at each other.
Which means the only ones that would attack from 2 sides are smaller alliances or coalitions. There is no need to bring full force for whatever they come with. There is no need to go back and forth 3 regions ever since there is no pressure. Remove JB completely and that doesnt change. So how does nerfing them change it?

TIMERS. I keep telling you this. You keep ignoring it. 30 minutes MINIMUM to reinfoce something. Multiple days of TIMERS to eventually take it down with the inbetween 30 minutes MINIMUM to get to the next stage. There is so much time to defend SOV slowing down fleet movement have no effect on it.

Thank you. Was a good read and I wholeheartedly agree. The changes don’t go far enough and we can only hope they are only a light start leading to more severe limitations to slow down large fleet movements.
And yes, maybe Ansiblexes should really be just deleted.

oh god please stop it. Nobody cares about TIMERS. It is the effort for all the people you want to bring, timer or not.

If it now takes 10 minutes to travel to the target location via an Ansiblex Network, sit out the timer and then travel back 10 minutes, you easily fill fleets of people willing to do that.

If it some day takes 90 minutes to travel to the target location via 30 gates and 29 long warps for brick-aligning battleships and then sit out the timer just to travel back 90 minutes via 30 gates and 29 long warps in brick-aligning battleships good luck with your CTA… especially when its for the same unimportant border Astrahus used by 3-4 ratters only. No sane leadership will keep up that effort to defend that system.

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It’s not meant to do that. It’s meant to make defending large areas of space harder, not from sov attacks, but from raiding.

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Can you imagine the howling, gnashing of teeth and threats of mass unsubs if FC just deleted ansiblexes?

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I can hear it, right now. And it sounds pretty nice. I mean, sometimes you can’t just fix something. Sometimes you have to root out evil and just create something new.

Or as someone said: “I suggest we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. it’s the only way to be sure!”

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At this point I dont care. The game is slowly becoming a tedious grind of how many people you can jam into a system at once, anything that made nullsec fun and engaging is getting ground down by the sheer numbers game and projection is entirely to blame for allowing this kind of lazy gameplay.

If it means a bunch of krabs who turn up on the weekends lose out on their toys, in order to make the game something the absolute hordes of people who have abandoned the game over the years want to play again, and maybe see other people joining an experiencing the potential this game has to offer (which very few people do in nullsec these days) it’s a price I think FC should be willing to pay.

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