Devblog: War Declaration Changes - The War Adjacent to Christmas


(Kelath Erebus) #850

Again this is where we differ. I feel that if you’re going to join a war, whether as an alliance, as a corp or as an individual, you have to remain in that war until the war is over. Else I could see the system being abused, like gorilla tactics of the big powerful person joins the battle, oh needs a breather, oh back again. As a opposed to big powerful person joins, everyone gangs up to defeat the individual who can’t leave the war until it is over. I know you’re focused on the new player dipping their toes into war, but you have to look at it from all angles.

(Nevyn Auscent) #851

The forever war is easy to solve. allow self destructing structures. Short timer, cant be done when it is taking active damage (or under repair timer even) so you cant do it to deny a km when on hull and under attack, but if you dont want to even try to defend it you can blow it up between assaults any time it is either invuln or on full shields.
Would introduce a bit of interesting meta in wh space around defenders self destructing to try and extract on holiday corp mates stuff, but otherwise I cant see it harming anything.

(Dracvlad) #852

Is not going to happen, CCP see the ability to leave corp when you want as too important.

(Kelath Erebus) #853

That would work with some wars, but in high-sec I feel most are for griefing and why would a griefing corp destroy the one structure that would kick their target out of the war when they could keep the structure and continue their gorilla tactics on attacking their ships until a ransom is paid, or heck, not attack and just use the threat of attack to kill the corps moral.

(Kelath Erebus) #854

I see what you’re saying, since people can leave corps during a war. But this would be different, since technically they wouldn’t be part of a corp, they’d be voluntarily entering the war on their own as an individual, I think that would require them to be treated as a mini-corp they can’t leave because they are the corp allying.

So if that couldn’t happen, then we’re back to square one. Where either the individual is in a war dec corp or not, and they have to decide whether they want to be in a war dec corp or not.

(Nevyn Auscent) #855

Go back and read what I wrote and you quoted please. And then explain to me how you could stop me from self destructing my structure under my suggestion.

(Kelath Erebus) #856

LOL, oops… Yes adding a self destruct mechanism would add some interesting mechanics. At the same time it isn’t solving the problem, it just means either I pay the griefing corp off or I blow up a very expensive structure, what’s the difference? There still was no purpose to the war and I still lost something when I shouldn’t have to begin with.

(Dracvlad) #857

We are not back to square anything, I was asking that CCP allow corps or alliances without a structure to be able to ally. If they do not change it then it is going to have to be a case of getting the hisec players to join either the original corp that is war decked or a holding corp that can ally into the war dec and leave as they want. It will put some people off as they don’t want to keep chopping and changing but whatever.

This is a very good idea.

(Kelath Erebus) #858

I’m good with that, as long as the current rules of allying remain, which means once you ally the corp or alliance is in the war until the end. Which brings back the forever war issues, but that is something else that I feel needs to be tackled.

I see that too, it’ll be a bit messy and annoying for some players.

(Nevyn Auscent) #859

If you cant chase them off, then you’ve lost the war. Now I’m all for asymmetric war goals also where if you can keep mining etc while under a wardec they lose the war. And you get a cut of the wardec fee to make it attractive to risk it.

But in terms of wars, if they want to declare war on you for lols, that should be allowed in eve.
You having a structure currently says you accept that risk for the reward of the structure.
The self destruct is just about giving you a way to surrender at a price and declare you aren’t ready for that scale of wardec yet.

(Aaron) #860

Great convo, I must say.

Try to look at the current mechanics as guidelines and let them guide your gameplay.

So instead of saying “Oh well, I can’t compete with nullsec indy without a structure so i may as well leave the game”

Say something like “Right, we have a chance to earn and gather resource without wardec, Lets keep an eye on the changes and learn how to defend a structure so we can compete with nullsec indy”

Our attitudes to toward the game may be the problem. it feels like the indy guys have been thrown a small life line which gives them complete freedom if they play it right, but now it looks like the daily moan will be about owning strucures AND still being immune from wardec.

Could we please just try to play the game within the current mechanics and see how it goes? I’ve got a few predictions of my own about what will happen, I think there is epic pvp to be had if we just let the mechanics guide us.

@Dracvlad I like the sound of your idea and would like to get involved, I’m fine with you being in charge of the operation and will do as you request and always give you my brutally honest opinion.

If you can agree to not complaining about the mechanics too much or not letting mechanics stop you dead in your tracks then I might just come on board.

Drac, I can assure you if we could just accept the mechanics we will have EPIC fun on the adventure you are proposing here.

You are correct, only the bravest of corps/alliances will seek to control structures, these brave pilots will be pursued by bloodthirsty and angry war deccers who have been starved of their usual gate camping antics.

You are a good fit for an alliance leadership role within your proposal, the indy guys could benefit from your honest advice and I think you will be crucial in getting some of them to take up arms and defend structures. The choice is yours, play Eve or not.

(Kelath Erebus) #861

In high-sec wars generally aren’t about chasing someone off. Like CODE, they are a huge and there are others like them who are spread out around high-sec, you can’t chase them off, just pray that you don’t come across them. If war was as simple as corp A declares war on corp B and there is some epic battle that determines the outcome, then sure, there is now someone to chase off.

I sort of like that, not that a percent of the wardec fee is going to do much since it doesn’t cost that much (part of the problem I think), but tying a victory goal to being able to continue to operate is interesting.

Of course perhaps war decs could cancel out if no one has blown up in 24 hours, sort of says something about a war when that happens, forces corps that declare war to actually attempt to do something or lose the isk they spent on the war. Of course the target could just dockup, but that also says something about how pointless it was to declare war in the first place.

I get it. It is a way out and a way for a corp to say, well we’re not ready for this whole war thing yet. That makes sense.

(Peter Yurgin) #862

If anyone thought I was wrong about the taxes issue with the player owned corp, here you go. The number 1 reason to get into a player owned corp is to avoid the NPC tax rate.

(Peter Yurgin) #863

Now if these guys join up and do abyssal sites, they will never even be seen in the sandbox.

(Dracvlad) #864

I will contact you in game, but the issue with war decs is sort of sorted in that a tranche of hisec has the freedom to develop and grow and not get strangled at birth like they were before, hopefully they can now develop to a point where they can risk a structure and wars.

I think you are a bit confused on my attitude to Freighter ganking which has extreme counter-play breaking mechanics that make it totally not worth my time, the mechanics in terms of war are equal for both sides., the only issue is of course the balance between forces, resources and attitude which are doable. Note that I do not go anywhere near freighter ganking counter play because it is game breaking for me and totally not worth my time. And I will not apologise for that!

It is not so much an alliance leadership approach at least in the early stages and I am not assuming it will be me either.

That has always been the reason to have your own corp.

So they magically get to the market hubs to sell the items?

(Peter Yurgin) #865

And now you can have the benefit of a player corp without the risk of being war dec’d. You no longer need to pay the NPC tax rate to be protected from other players interfering with you.

(Dracvlad) #866

Good, as Eve is better played with friends.

(Peter Yurgin) #867

Yes, but you don’t need to be in a corp to play with people. NPSI groups are all over the place that take anyone in from all different corps. These need not be player corps to play with others. You are missing the point here. People complaining they had corps fall apart because of a war dec are only using an external excuse for an internal problem. It is up to the CEO to find ways to keep their players active.

A simple call out in local can get you someone to do PVE with. It happens all the time. Get discord and get a private chat channel in game and keep your buddies in there. No same corp needed.

(Kelath Erebus) #868

I never saw the NPC player tax as paying for protection from other players interfering with you, probably because every corp I joined always had a corp tax. Even my corp has always had a corp tax. In fact I never really saw a benefit from an NPC corp other then just wanting to play alone.

High-sec corps now have the benefit of growing their corp to the point they feel comfortable adding structures and joining the wardeccing level, instead of trying to survive wardec after wardec building their corp with just a few pilots before giving up and joining another corp to endure the same fate. Or it gives those who never want to wardec and just mine rocks for their entire time online to just do that, minus the occasional gank.

It is up to the CEO to find ways to keep their players active.

It is up to the CEO to find ways to keep the corp active. But that ability only goes so far, especially when your corp is under siege and you have players that have absolutely no interest in combat. So you tell them how to stay safe, you might even setup patrols when you have enough people online, unfortunately your attacking corp uses gorilla tactics and mixes boring your players with quick attacks when the patrols leave. This hits moral, now no one wants to undock, but the warring corp is still waiting for their ransom, but you’re not going to pay that ransom because that perpetuates the system.

A CEO is not god, s/he can only do so much. It is up to the CEO to find ways to keep their players active, but there are also variables out of the CEOs control that can inhibit those actions leaving the players with the only alternative which is to leave for another corp and wait for things to repeat, until they get sick of the griefing and leave the game.

edit: Don’t get me wrong, even my corp had a core of players of about 15 that hung in there and dealt with the blows and we did the best we can. But those players either a) had an interest in combat and we used the time for PvP practice when the enemy actually made their presence known b) had a secondary area setup that they’d retreat to during the war c) had a secondary character they’d use during war time.

But really, none of that should have had to happen in the first place. You have to ask yourself, what was the point of a war, when neither corp causes causalities. There almost needs to be a part of the war dec system where 24-48 hours after no one has died that the war should auto-end, regardless of war length with an additional penalty that it can’t start up again (until X amount of time has passed) for creating such a useless war to begin with.

(Karmastat) #869

Your absolutely right, And also wrong at the same time.

So your saying a new guy who makes a corp and has his friends join up also come with years of experience right out of the can?

The discussion is mostly about corps with new people in them, veterans don’t need or want our advice or discussion to know what to do.