Devblog: War Declaration Changes - The War Adjacent to Christmas

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(Tora Bushido) #830

Great patch!!

We adapted and are now going after all the structures. System for system. Or they die and we get rich from loot or they pay us per month. And this makes way more isks than via the clients we have. So I foresee a perma dec for most of the nulsec alliances.

You can thank CCP and the CSM. :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:


(Karmastat) #831

I agree that’s an issue. its one reason I suggested earlier that only structures in High-sec count in wars. After all Concord only has Wardec authority in high-sec. Still that is 2300(?) systems to hide them in.

Possibly having a random selection of ONE structure by the wardec system - that will stop the war when destroyed? As well as u being notified of that structure location when the war starts. They same would apply to Allies (and yes structure in high-sec too).

I know this invalidates wardec’ing Null pr low-sec entities (at least those without structures in high-sec) but there is no reason why we cant have a separate but equal system for that.


(Nevyn Auscent) #832

High sec structures simply don’t get good enough bonuses to reward growing past a certain size, as the size costs start to outweigh the benefits, and multiple structures make you far more a target. (Yes Low sec also has this issue, Low sec should actually be where the highest bonuses are, as busy uncontrolled space with access to Empire population but fewer laws to hold you back)
High Sec needs something special, that you can actually focus a highsec corp on that is related to structure use to grow these decent sized corps around. Not simply a weaker version of everywhere else.


(Dracvlad) #833

Totally agree.

Absolutely.

@Brisc_Rubal you should note this because it is a major issue.


(Brisc Rubal) #834

I agree. I think High Sec and Low Sec both need a review and some additions to make living there have a specific point beyond what exists now.


(Dom Arkaral) #835

Doing anything in Highsec shouldn’t ever be as profitable as the same thing elsewhere.

You want the whole thing go wherevery it’s already available.

I really love how it’s again people with no experience with highsec that want to change it. People who think they know what people there are like, people who think HS bears want to team up to kill the mean mean wardeccers Grrr :joy::joy::joy:

As has been said so many times

if you want to pvp go to Lowsec or nullsec

:joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy::joy:


(Kelath Erebus) #836

but there almost nothing you couldn’t do in a NPC corp that you couldn’t do in your own corp

Not in our case, we used a custom online toolset which only worked for players that were part of the corp for tracking and other things. So without being in the corp together mining ops, fleet operations and all that went out the window and returned to primitive methods. Not to mention we were not a PvP corp, not even close, we were a corp of miners and industrialists with some PvE pilots, an easy target for one of MANY ransom war decing corps. which we always refused to pay, because that just continues the cycle of PvP corps attacking non PvP corps for no reason other then to disrupt their play.

We had our online toolset / corp community portal (think social networking site for the corp) / teamspeak (Discord didn’t exist back then).

The core players did stick around, that was about 15 of our 80 pilots, the rest were there because of our community and had no interest in the headache of war or the game for a lot of them having to deal with pointless war after war with every corp they joined, we just happened to be their last corp.

so how many of those wardecers actually showed up ?

That depended on the whether it was just a corp or an alliance. At most I think 5, only one war did we not see anyone. It varied, the fact that we didn’t see anyone that one war dec shows that the system is broken. Why declare war if you’re not going to, you know, war.

i also like all the people spouting if you want to pvp go to low sec or null.

I’ve lived in null and low-sec with other corps for a little while, not my cup of tea. But you’re right it is harder in low-sec and way harder in null, the mechanics of the game greatly increased depending on the zone. But I view it now as four levels:

  1. High-Sec Corps that have no interest in fighting, sure they’ll have to deal with ganking, but what else is new.
  2. High-Sec Corps that want to fight or at least have enough pilots now that they want to create a structure and have the ability to defend it. I’m not going to include in this group those corps that move WAY to fast and buy plex to buy a structure, I’m just going to focus on corps that organically grow to have enough pilots to justify a structure and the ability to put up a fight for it.
  3. Low-Sec Corps that are past the high-sec level and want to move their operations to a harder area but for a bigger reward.
  4. Null-Sec Corps that have either joined an alliance or have enough power to really push the game to its limits.

There is nothing wrong with any of those levels and provides everyone a comfortable zone to play in.

and for your industrial corp under the pretence that there might be 1 dude or 2 dudes showing up what can they do. get in ships kill them

Oh we tried. Yup, us miners put together our pitchforks and glued together a ship that even a Minmatar might be proud of, then lost our fleet to 1 or 2 of those dudes who’s sole purpose in life was PvP. The mechanics are completely different and unless you’re interested and practiced you’re going to die. With my last corp iteration we had better luck, but only because we had grown to the point we had a wing of players that did low-sec roams and were ready to help fight.


I think the problem I always had with war, is that it wasn’t about war, it was about ransoming, or just being annoying. I can understand one corp getting upset over another corp and actually fighting for purpose, but 99% of all high-sec wars seem to be without purpose, apart from the ransoming aspect. Oh you don’t have your license number in your profile, BOOM, oh you don’t pay tribute, then BOOM, oh you’re a small corp that I find in local, then BOOM.

Some could argue that that is a game mechanic, just the mafia roughing up the small guys who refuse to band together. And sure, I suppose it could be looked at that way. But then again, it is high-sec, it is suppose to be relatively safe and relatively free of useless drama. It’s a place for new players to learn the game and comfortable grow to become experienced players who may venture into PvP and then venture into low and then contribute to the insanity of null.

So again I don’t see any issue with this change, it just adds another level of choice to the players.

Now you can start small and relatively safe, grow it until your corp is ready to take it to that next level, then the next and the next.

War is going to continue to go on, those that love to war with corps will still be able to, even in high sec just not with every corp they see in local because they got bored and that declare war button looked like it needed to be clicked a couple times.


(Leila Pegasus) #837

i dont know what you want realy if they do what you say you can ally with everbody and all just without a structure great then i wardecs can be removed from the game cause then just everbody turrtels up and they can leave the war whenever they feel like it and the attacker needs to face down whatever the trowh at him just to then after a week leave the war again and rebuild some isk and so forth.

so either you are in a war eligable entety or not. i mean you have the choise even with that new broken system but you cant go like yes i would like the benefits but dont like the risk involed in beeing warelible.


(Karmastat) #838

Here is a question:

What if, as it is now, we have a WarDec’ing corporation (A) that starts wars with six (6) different corps (B thru G) at the same time.

IF corporation (D) destroys corp (A)'s structure(s) … Do all the wars end? lol … Maybe this will also cut down on the ‘Dec Everyone’ mentality somewhat.


(Elsebeth Rhiannon) #839

Assuming all of A’s structures are destroyed, they are no longer war eligible, so yes, all their wars will end. If A’s structures were in low or null to begin with, the destroyer could even be someone who is not at war with them at all.


(Karmastat) #840

Interesting, mmmm I see giggles in the future.


(Dracvlad) #841

The issue you have is the current make up of hisec with a limited number of people willing to fight, so you want to make it so that they can easily join as allies. If hisec players who are not really into PvP have to become vulnerable to war decs so as to ally to help defend another’s structure then they will not bother. It is hardly rocket science?

I don’t give a shite if you think that is unfair, for me it is to get people willing to fight so as to create fun content that does not screw them up. You should want people to stick their toes into the water and if they like it then they put a structure up and go for it.


(Kelath Erebus) #842

Perhaps they will expand the system so you can ally and like the old system that would lock your corp into the war until it ends. I think I am okay with that, the corp is making the choice to join the war and to remain in it until it ends.

Until then if people want to stick their toes into PvP they are more the capable of traveling to low-sec or null to do as much PvP as they want, individually or in groups, while remaining in a non-wardecable coorp.


(Dracvlad) #843

Why? Then most hisec players will not bother, do you want content or not? Obviously you do not and want your easy turkey shoot. Whereas I want to see hisec players getting stuck in and not be handicapped by stupid forever wars. You really want Eve to die don’t you?

Hisec allows them to control who they fight, it is a protected area, best place to learn, you do not want that.


(Kelath Erebus) #844

Why? Then most hisec players will not bother, do you want content or not? Obviously you do not and want your easy turkey shoot. Whereas I want to see hisec players getting stuck in and not be handicapped by stupid forever wars. You really want Eve to die don’t you?

So you want High-Sec corps to be able to ally with corporations at war, but not be targets themselves? I’m against that. If your corp is going to decide to ally with a corp that is at war, then your corp is at war and will remain at war till the end of that war. Period. I think that should be a choice that any corp can make.

Hisec allows them to control who they fight, it is a protected area, best place to learn, you do not want that.

Yes, high-sec allows individuals and corps decide who they want to fight, I think that is great. This new mechanic increases those choices and I’m good with that. But I am against corps that under the new system are un-war-decable who decide to ally with another corp/alliance that is at war with the ability to just pull out at their convenience, just like declaring war should be a big decision, deciding to join as an ally should be the same and the consequences of that decision is that you should be locked into the war until it ends.

Again, if players in high-sec belong to an un-war-decable corp and want to “dip-their-toes” then they can fly to low-sec or null-sec and do as much PvP as they want until they burn through their bank account. Or I would also be okay with an un-war-decable corp joining in a war as an ally, but with the side affect of locking them into that war until it ends.


(Dracvlad) #845

Yes I do, and I have laid out why above, it offers them a way to get into more controlled PvP, one of the issues with lowsec is that there are caps floating around…

I can see that.

That should not happen, people should be able to ex[perience war to develop themselves to be able to then put down structures.

And I disagree because the reality is that there are lots of hisec players that need to have a safe push into PvP and would be happy to do so as a group. Once they ally they can be shot, but locking them into a forever war is the height of stupidity.

They will get dropped on by caps and other exotic stuff, will be a turn off.

Nope because currently there is no end to war decs, so no.


If CCP leaves it as is then it just means another hoop to jump over, basically getting people to switch corps. So at the end of the day I will do that, but it will reduce the number of possible participants due to inertia which is a shame.


(Kelath Erebus) #846

I’m going to dispense with regergitating what was above this, since we clearly disagree :slight_smile:

You’re right there are a lots of high-sec players that need to have a safe push into PvP, in my corp we handled that with low-sec roams, in groups, using comms and all those fancy tools you can use.

I also agree that forever wars are stupid, but that is a failure in the mechanics of the game which allows that to happen. Allowing corps to ransom other corps while employing gorilla tactics, destroying the moral of corp members over weeks or months, often causing them to leave the game after a number of experiencing like this across multiple corps. But your solution is not a solution, that is a bandaid to the problem and not a very good bandaid, in my opinion.

They will get dropped on by caps and other exotic stuff, will be a turn off.

LOL, my corp has held a number of low-sec and null roams and never have they have been dropped on by caps. Perhaps they hit another roam and took shots at each other, but mostly they hit other individuals or pairs. Some more challenging then others. Perhaps its just fear that holds a lot of new players from adventuring into the darkness of space.

The “no end to war decs” is a game mechanic issue, not sure the best way to fix that. I understand that wars can’t always be mutual, but wars I feel have to have meaning and perhaps some sort of goal that needs to be met which when met prevents another war for X amount of time or something. And the goal can’t just be paying a ransom and it can’t be an on going goal, or the cost of war has to be drastically increased with perhaps multipliers every week it remains. I don’t know, just throwing ideas out there.


(Dracvlad) #847

We clearly disagree but that is fine.

I am glad to see that you think forever wars are stupid, I appreciate that.

But the solution to being unable to ally without a structure is of course what I said will happen, which is to just push people to switch corps to fight in a war. The issue is that it does reduce the recruit pool a bit. But I guess anyone trying to help defend stuff will have to live with it.

I was recently in nullsec in Catch, and operated a bit in the lowsec around Provi and Curse and people were dropping caps in those areas. I guess it depends where you are. Good to hear that you have so far not had that pleasure. Though I always found it funny.

Something to stop the forever war is needed, your idea is something that would work.

PS There is a difference in dealing with more hisec orientated players in their own corps as compared to those in your own corp. What I am looking to develop is a coalition, not a corp or an alliance, which will draw from a pool of people who are pretty invidualistic, so the less hoops to jump through the better.


(Kelath Erebus) #848

That could be interesting. So instead of just alliances and corps allying having it so individual pilots could ally, even if they are in a corp. Like when the US sent volunteers to the UK and other countries during WWII before the US entered the war officially. Those individual pilots would become war targets, but the corp remains out of it… I could get behind something like that, but again it would have to be until the war ends, which leads us back to the issue with the forever war mechanics…


(Dracvlad) #849

They can leave a corp as they please.