DSCAN Skills?

Then learn to argue. You are lazy. You’ve got a book about it from the looks of things. Maybe dust that off, and read it lol.

Don’t complain to me because you split hairs to avoid the topic. It’s lazy. Do some research, do some math. Quit the insults and the petty slights and address the topic.

With all your programming familiarity maybe just make a functional example of how something like that might hit a rut, instead of just saying “because programming”. If you claim that’s a significant problem, it’s your assertion even if you’re using that assertion in rebuttal to someone elses claim now you made one too.

That means you’re gonna back it up. Now do it. Prove that this idea is just miles and miles of spaghetti that couldn’t be wrangled by anything or anyone than the first author. Until you prove that, and again CCP still hasn’t said a -thing- in response, just let go of the split hair, because you’re not going to prove yourself right with out a functional example.

I’ve already pleaded a lack of knowledge, and pointed out that it’s CCP’s call on how hard they think it is, and it’s not your place as a person who is not employed by that firm to tell them how hard their job is or is not. They know, not you. You have an idea, more developed than man, but far less substantial than theirs.

The reason I’m ASKING THEM is because they know, and I’ve already proven than I didn’t. I didn’t say I was correct for being wrong I said that it’s a simple mistake that is easy to see when you make it and easy to correct because it’s going to mean we just go the other way with the variable. Not deep stuff.

So learn to argue and recognize the difference between fact and whatever it is you call what you have been doing. With out the evidence, in a discussion like this, you don’t have facts. All of this topic can be solved with empirical evidence. None of this topic can be solved with flawed ontology. Also remember that ontology is the process by which we support an empirical condition or fact. It is not fact in or of itself. It’s what connects the facts that propagate the empirical phenomena. You have a lot of ontological ground to cover before you’ve successfully argued. There is plenty of ontological support for what a modification to combat scanning would entail and how it would effect game play.

I’ve provided sound, reasonable, rational and logical points of support for how the PVE aspect wouldn’t be helpless, how new and old players benefit, and how and why I think it would be a valuable asset for the community.

I didn’t provide an evidence of how fast or good I am at DSCAN. I don’t think it’s a good idea to do while simultaneously performing meta research. However, if the only prerequisite is dscanning to a tackle, regardless of the engagements out come solely to limit the discussion of how often a scan results in a tackle in terms of statistical average - I may be willing to obtain legal software for the purpose of generating that data for peer review.

I will not consider the combat outcome as relevant to the activity of DSCAN-to-tackle, because with out support, if a tackle escalates, it would invalidate whether or nor there was any point in attempting the tackle. We take fights we can win, not fights we can get - unless we haven’t got a vested interest in the outcome.

So if you’re gonna argue, do it properly.

no, they were not facts. They were opinions and beliefs. Well, the fact the idea is new is a fact… but that’s the only one. Youre confusing what you believe to be true with what is fact. Just because you believe it’s true, doesnt make it fact.

Other than wormhole corps do it daily… no metrics at all. rolls eyes

Also you’re making assumptions on what i believe.

I live in wormhole space, I know I do more of both.

Real world application do not matter; its a game.

I never said it was too difficult… I said its harder than you think it is… which you proved me correct by not being able to make a simple change on a simple program after I explained exactly how it worked.

As for being worth CCP’s time. You’re correct, that decision rests with them; however, I’m allowed to express my opinion… and considering how few people agree with you, I’d say CCP isn’t going to waste their time. Feel free to contact a member of the CSM and see what they think…

No, it hasn’t been. Youre confusing your beliefs with fact. You believe Eve should operate like the real world; the fact is that it does not… and won’t.

You’ve called me lazy. You’ve said i have a narrow view on things because I disagree with you. That’s not cordial.

I don’t have to. I’d have to do three scan downs with your system. Even with a good idea where they are, that takes around 10 to 30 seconds… each time. So without travel, it’s 20 seconds.

After the first scan down, I put my probes in place and hit scan. Scan takes 6 seconds for me. So, I’ve already got a lock and am warping in before I’ve got my second triangulation done.

I don’t need to post a video. Anyone who knows how to properly combat scan knows this already. Its easy. Set your combat probes to the smallest setting, make a tight bunch. Move them over the tip of the D-scan cone… scan. Move mouse over while scanning to click warp. You just don’t know how to effectively combat scan. For 2 billion ISK, we can meet in high sec and ill teach you.

Someone else has already pointed this out as well…

■■■■■■■■. I can do this, but I can’t show you how because I dont want to reveal my secrets. If your techniques are so effective, then you really don’t need this system you’re claiming is so vital.

No, there isn’t. Its what you claim. Facts would he these videos you’re unwilling (and I’m betting unable) to make.

Nope. You have to prove your assertion this is a good idea. And no one has been convinced. No one.

What the hell are you going on about? Talking about combat pilots. Talk about a red herring and a non sequitur…

I am Worf, son of Mogh(?)… seriously, I dont even know how to react to this…

No, this is some self-agrandizing garbage to hide your lack of facts and evidence.

I’ve pointed out most of your argument fallacies. I don’t need to open the book. The number of argument fallacies you use would get you laughed at in a formal debate.

umm… you’re the one who is using insults and thus is the lazy one. You have only insults and your beliefs. You confuse them.

and then still tried to show me how easy it is to code and still got it wrong… with a crib sheet there to help you. And that is a fact.

LOL. I already do. Learning to debate does that. Just because you think it will be faster doesn’t mean it will be.

Except logical points wouldn’t be littered with so many argument fallacies.

You just claimed you’d provided facts, now you’re admitting you didn’t…

I have been. You’re the one wanting to play Calvin ball… which I said was going to happen. You’re changing the rules as you go…

Here’s a major point in debate: if you have to attack the person you are debating instead of their argument, your argument is weak.

Combine that with the number of argument fallacies you have here, its a pretty weak argument.

All of which I’ve provided qualification for. All I’ll reiterate on there is despite those reasons I don’t see them as a significant reason not to pursue the idea in a controlled environment to see what game play shift is, and how pilots feel about the new tools. The indy players have suffered this before. Reprocess, get the minerals and such back, and accept the truth of the market - Beta-max happened, and VHS won. Not super awesome I know… geared transmissions are becoming a thing of the past and it’s sad, because they work better than a CVT, and are more expensive to produce. Simultaneously new car prices and the cost of maintenance have gone up, and CVT’s are maintenance dependent, not all geared car transmissions are. I don’t think this idea is squarely in the CVT or bad geared transmission category. Won’t know if we don’t try it though.

Regarding the Cov-ops and T3d T3C comment though:

Honestly the recons would only change which tool they do what they do with. The biggest difference is now there’s a compelling reason to buy the Lachesis instead of the Orthorus - point range being a critical thing, if I’m not on Dscan and I can see you - which is a current game mechanic for a lachesis the hulls viability is increased in the meta it was designed for which is fairly under utilized in favor of the force recon boats having the exact same presence in the game from an effective perspective. They in effect make their combat recons obsolete. However as things stand now, almost every advantage would go to the Orthorus over a Lachesis, and that’s in spite of the Ewar capability and the DSCAN invulnerability. If anything the balance on the comat recons would probably buff the hulls in terms of base tank and not anything else because of the fact that the Orthorus provides you with a complete suite of combat recon capabilities except for the one thing you’d think something that looks that would give you - stealth! haha! It’s hysterical that the Lach - lumpy as it is, is invisible to radar, but visible to probes, and the Orthorus is a dark and swarthy thing that shows up on both dscan an probes. It’s speed, tank and damage and inertia modifier make all combat recons less appealing and they are very similar price points. That means the clear winner is a force recon for the same job, but you have to accept the decloaking penalty. For the combat recon role/meta the Orthorus is just better for the most part, and much more survivable.

Also with force recons, they come with covert cynos and black ops bridge synergy which takes even more from a combat recon - so there’s little need for the rework on those hulls. The advantage that a new dscan like what I propose is that there is no decloaking penalty attributed to the dscan invulnerability on combat recon vessels. That means that you can in fact be more compelling than an orthorus in a lachesis or any other combat recon, solely because if you can get the warp in directly instead of waiting for probes or warping via celestial the element of surprise you’d naturally get in an arazu or proteus or any racial flavor of the same hull class gave you is now available with out the extra leg work. Less module management on a probe launcher or a cloak, more time on target because of stream lining the last into a single tool. The element of surprise, and not just “I see that orthorus, aligning” (when you should have been aligned), or “i see a garmur”… Now it’s just “hello.” POINT and some “w’s” in fleet =)

In effect really the only change is on the T3D. A better answer there in my mind based on my experiences in a hecate would be no targeting delay after decloaking, but no cov ops cloak, just the slow boat ones.

That way you can decloak and put some surprise in someone. Maybe you got chased down, and needed to regroup. Bookmark, warp to it, get off vector, cloak up and start scanning.

Suppose you thought you got scanned down but didn’t have the scanner set wide while you were being persued. Land, cloak, adjust dscan, figure it out, decloak, click to prop mode, WARP - or GET IT ON! >=)

I think I’d rather see destroyers destroy, and have some actual tactical elements like that of surprise, than getting to use a scan probe launcher. They are both tactical advantages, but that kinda tool is pretty valuable too, and doesn’t really ask a whole lot of inventiveness of anyone to implement. Just a hull change. Could be fun, could be mayhem. Those might be the same thing. lol

Nope. I want to make sure everyone can get to a point where the flexibility behind the tools provide compelling game play.

And if you’re good at something never give it away for free.

Stop accusing me of being you, would ya?

Good heavens, you’re a broken record.

You stillllllllll haven’t dont’ your home work and you’re not getting off that hook. Anti up cowboy, or you don’t get a card dealt on the next hand.

Fact your arguement, and let go of the splitting hairs approach, or discontinue your participation because it’s really pointless to just chase your tail. You’re worse than Socrates. The Athenians put him to death for what you’re doing because it stirred up too much confusion in the youth of Athens. We’re a lot more tolerant than the times of old, and you’re lucky for that one. Now get your self on the correct path. Use facts and stop complaining to me about how I’m you - I’m not.

Facts. Evidence, math, calculation. Prove this stuff or get called lazy, and such.

OP needs a new hobby instead of trolling the forums.

Which was already assessed before I even took a stab at it to see if I had been able to identify which part of the code to alter, which I got right by the way. I made an incorrect adjustment - there you’re correct, but still far wide of a valid response to the point in question - which was if anyone needed to worry about it it’d be CCP and not us.

Now here’s your trophy to put on the mantle. Place it next to the merit badges you collect for one thing or the other - I don’t actually care.

What I do care about is the the fact that you are unwilling to address the topic other than to say “no because we can already do it a different way” that’s not much of a fact. So many topics on this forum meet that requirement, and they aren’t any more valid in view of them being the status quo. They’re just how things are, and the idea that you have to leave them as they are means that eventually the metas all shake out and only one style of game play emerges.

You’re not embracing the fact that this idea has merit, and you aren’t willing to explore those merits. You are only willing to say no because you can combat scan with a probe, but don’t provide any support for whether or not we see enough of that meta in the game. More simple tools provide greater likelihood of participation.

Don’t believe me, ask the Winmatar… Nah. Flash in the pan right? Nope. Not even close. When those changes took place half of the metas that were viable faded into obscurity.

Remember when Null got a buff? Good god did that put blasters on a cormmorant fast for a while. Lots of brawling merlins over night. Years ago, but case in point - you can’t predict that this wouldn’t generate the kind of content the PVP community comes to EVE for. And with proper planning and piloting the WH and PVE crowd will be fine. But that’s always been the case.

So let me ask you, the fair weather programmer something. Did you give everyone this much crap when they asked for some minmatar love, or a improvement to T2 blaster ammo? Did you complain when the ASB proved to be the clear winner over the AAR? Did you ever give anyone so much as a single sentence of this kind of baseless hair splitting nonsense?

Or just continue with pulling your own string saying “i know how to debate, I use fact like ‘but breaks the game and its not worth CCPs time to figure out’”?

Again, do your homework, bring facts, present evidence and stop being so lazy. Its the same excuse every single post. You aren’t right in any of them. You’re still not addressing the topic, you’re still splitting hairs and you still have no credibility.

After reviewing the thread, I have decided to close it as it has gone wildly off topic and correcting it would result in a loss of over half the thread. Thank you.

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