Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use?

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Teckos_Pech

They don’t have too because all they have to do is make their botting program available to those who want to bot.

As I said, those botters dont want more bots.
If they sell them, well, thats no different than before.
Still, a more advanced bot is inherently more complex and difficult to implement/use than a rudimentary one.

CCP can track and prosecute persons that sell or share bot programs that target their EVE product.

@Teckos_Pech

No, it is like saying, “If we kill some of them this way, in the end they’ll become stronger and then they could win.”

Yeah. That doesnt make any sense.
By that logic CCP should do nothing against bots, cos it apparently “might mean they become stronger and then they could win”
Its fking stupid.

@Teckos_Pech

Please, don’t lose sight of the fact that it was you making the absurd statement of “by any means necessary” which automatically includes the absurd solutions like the one I noted.

I assumed it was clear that shutting down the servers (ie:killing the game) was not to be considered among “by any means necessary” options. Apparently not to you for that absurd conclusion. Especially since the entire impetus is improving the health of EVE, not killing it outright.

@Teckos_Pech

I did. If PLEX were removed the number of bots would go up in short order. So PLEX is currently reducing the number of bots.

Re-read the question, for the third time, this time with attention:
Explain how PLEX can be used to reduce the number of bots in the game currently.

@Teckos_Pech

Oh yes, it is just that easy.

It was your suggestion, yet you have nothing?
You claimed somekind of PLEX-like additional system would be the better route to prevent bots. Well, back that up with something, anything.
Even a rudimentary elaboration on what you are proposing as a better route.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Aischa_Montagne

I disagree with you.

You disagree that botters affect market prices?

@Aischa_Montagne

I say the system can sustain a certain persentage of bots.

What certain % is that?

The issue is not whether EVE can sustain X% of botters.
The issue is that botters harm EVE, period.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Returning to the idea of a simplified captcha to stump rudimentary bots:

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The ingame EVE UI and client has possibilities/capacities that a web browser does not.

A previous poster indicated that colors/text can be handled by more advanced bots, especially if the popup is static.

What about a moving element to click in a pop-up?
In the below image, the center of the vortex moves and you click it with the reticle cursor:

Or a simple sliding bar puzzle?
In the below image, you move the bars up and down to reveal the 1/2/3:

In the image below, you must rotate each disc so the numbers align between the green lines:

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These are just a few preliminary crude examples of the possibilities.
I can come up with dozens more, in all manner of variants.

Afaik, very few bots, if any, will be able to overcome these tests, but they are trivial for a human and take only a few seconds and clicks to complete.

Even better, is if the tests are randomly drawn from a pool, so that any one bot capable of dealing with one of them (which I doubt they can), it wont be able to deal with another.

Aesthetically, they can ofc be “Eveified” so they arent an eye sore or break immersion unduly.

[Aischa_Montagne]

@Salvos_Rhoska

You disagree that botters affect market prices?

No I disagree that the effect that bots currently on grand scale.

I think that market activity in eve are more complex on overall scale that the bot scheme works to ruin the market over long period of time. What it does it ruins individual capsuleer, by denying there share at the market.
However you as a human trader can always decide to go to another market. Even an unseeded Market can create Profits. It is more work for you!

Jita and Amarr are Lazy trader markets, not in general but to many people.

Please note again:
Are bots bad? - Definitly should be reported and investigated.
Do bots break the game? No not yet.

Will they break the game? If they do a many other people have done many things wrong. And I am not refering to CCP.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Aischa_Montagne

No I disagree that the effect that bots currently on grand scale.

CCP banned 32,000 accounts last year for botting, iirc, indicating the problem is extremely widespread, epidemic frankly. For perspective, 32k is greater than average PCU. That constitutes “grand scale” by any measure.

We know that every bot harms EVE, and advantages the botter unfairly.
We also know that even one bot causes an artificial change in the economy, that subsequently causes an effect on everyone else, thus magnifying the effect on the economy.

The goal is zero bots.
Bots are subject to zero tolerance.
Any and all bots that can be eliminated, should be eliminated.

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What is worse, is the bans do not stop botters returning and starting up the same operations all over again. They can swap IP/accounts, and if they’ve managed to squirrel away isk that CCP didnt confiscate, just start up the same operation, with the same bot programs, all over again.

That is why prevention of botting is the key, rather than arduous remedial/investigative action after the fact that bot is already operating.

Thus my suggestion of preventative bot-proof captcha systems which I outlined above in my previous post.

[Anjyl_Took]

To sum up everything you said in reply to everything I said:

• Me: A non-living thing cannot evolve, because evolve means to change on it’s own. All change has to come from living things.
• You: Look at all these systems that contain living things, that evolve, you are so stupid for not understanding this.

I would be more than happy to concede your point if you could show me a bot that changes and evolves without requiring a developer. Or how EvE could change or evolve without requiring developers or players.

Anyway, it was an aside, and not essential to the conversation. It’s just a pet peeve of mine when people cite examples of “design” as “evolution.”

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Anjyl_Took

It’s just a pet peeve of mine when people cite examples of “design” as “evolution.”

Whats your opinion on the bot-tests I submitted above?

[Anjyl_Took]

@Teckos_Pech

You are basically creating penicillin…and the bots are like a bacteria. Do we want to end up with the MRSA form of bots?

Yes! Of course yes! We want the only bots to be “the MRSA from of bots.” Are you saying that if we could go back in time and prevent Alexander Fleming from making penicillin, we should do it, just because MRSA came as a result of it?

@Salvos_Rhoska

Nobody has claimed it prevents all botting, in all perpetuity.

Salvos is right here. Why do some people look at the botting problem like the on acceptable solution is 100% eradication of all bot for all times?

@Teckos_Pech

And if all we have left are the more talented programmers making bots…

Great!

@Nevyn_Auscent

They are putting in mandatory checklpoints everywhere in the city where every single person has to undergo an ID check on their way to work, on their way to the supermarket, on their way to the bar, on their way to the sports game…

I’m sure the analogy would be “they are putting checkpoints everywhere in the city where anyone who looks and acts like a gang member has to undergo an ID check…”

@Salvos_Rhoska

Whats your opinion on the bot-tests I submitted above?

They remind me of Runescape. Okay, Runescape sucked, I’m not saying otherwise, but it used a captcha based anti-botting system, so it’s relevant to this discussion. Especially regarding the ideas of “false positives” or “stop and frisk” style analogies. The captchas never came up in the middle of a fight, nor when running through dangerous areas, they would only come up when you are doing bot-like repetitive tasks.

I mentioned this before, the EvE system “knows” when it is sending waves of rats at you, it “knows” when there are hostile NPCs or players (even cloaked ones) around you. To suggest a captcha style anti-bot system does not mean “getting captchas every-time you login or in the middle of a fight.”

A captcha style system could have an in-game ISK loss effect on bots (by killing them or making them killable) and it could also be used as a flag for CCP to tell them which accounts to look at for bans or other actions.

Yes, some of these methods would also “catch” AFK and semi-AFK players who are acting in bot-like ways. Good, that’s intentional in the design.

Edit: cleared up wording.

[Baba_Ji]

@Teckos_Pech

BTW, the notion of PLEX is a fantastic anti-bot measure that does not result in an arms race.

That kind of solution should be preferred.

I’ll let this stand in isolation and ask you to explain this thought. Step by step the thought process of how Plex prohibits the desire for bots to exist in Eve.

I don’t require analogies,idioms,expanded examples not directly related to the statement quoted. I don’t require links to articles of real world concepts,or the summarized conclusions of people creating such articles.

I’ll read it and won’t contest it,debunk it,or offer to amend it. What I will do is make my own conclusions and move on.

I am truly interested. Please proceed.

[Aischa_Montagne]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Thus my suggestion of preventative bot-proof captcha systems which I outlined above in my previous post.

Would you put 200 Orders up if you must play for each order a minigame of 20 seconds?
Thats 1h only playing the captcha minigame.
Then you have not done anything of the thing you wanted to do.

Dont think this is a good addition to the game. I think it would destroy the game. I am sorry.

[Dinsdale_Pirannha]

@Aischa_Montagne

@Salvos_Rhoska

Thus my suggestion of preventative bot-proof captcha systems which I outlined above in my previous post.

Would you put 200 Orders up if you must play for each order a minigame of 20 seconds?
Thats 1h only playing the captcha minigame.
Then you have not done anything of the thing you wanted to do.

Dont think this is a good addition to the game. I think it would destroy the game. I am sorry.

And that is the additional benefit besides foiling botters.
No one should be putting up 200 orders.

It would destroy the game for a tiny handful of incredibly wealthy traders.
Big deal. CCP has wiped out professions before by fiat.
Ask the group that used to anchor POS’s in high sec for a fee.
Ask the people that used to do RP as a way of making a living with datacores.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

@Aischa_Montagne

Would you put 200 Orders up if you must play for each order a minigame of 20 seconds?

Where:
A) Did you get the idea this would apply to sell orders, let alone each one?
B) Did you get the idea the minigame would take 20s?

I never said anything about sell orders (or buy orders) or the minigame taking 20s.

Are you a botter shitting your pants?

[Aischa_Montagne]

@Salvos_Rhoska

A) Did you get the idea this would apply to sell orders, let alone each one?

Well, it doe not matter if it is a sell or buy order. Each one is the most simplest solution. If it is only one, I can answer the captacha and then bulkload my trades.
If you just want to stop trades beeing changed then a famous timer can be used. You can only change your order 2 a day. Bang, done.

@Salvos_Rhoska

B) Did you get the idea the minigame would take 20s?

because I usually need that much for Captacha systems. The more complex are the easier ones, but they take longer.

@Dinsdale_Pirannha

And that is the additional benefit besides foiling botters.

No one should be putting up 200 orders.

200 Buy and sell orders you get fast. You just need to build stuff. (I think I can have a 100 buy and a 100 sell orders or so. And I am not opt for buy sell stuff.

[Anjyl_Took]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Where:

A) Did you get the idea this would apply to sell orders, let alone each one?

B) Did you get the idea the minigame would take 20s?

I never said anything about sell orders (or buy orders) or the minigame taking 20s.

It’s called a “straw man”: it’s when you suggest something somewhat complex, and your opponent restates or gives an example or a simple or extreme situation that you had not suggested. They then attack or disprove this simple brainless “straw man” they have created. And then they declare your idea as bad and that they have won.

It is the rule, not the exception, for these forums.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Wft are you on about?

Ive never said anything about the bot-tests I proposed affecting buy/sell orders, let alone each one.

I also specifically said my proposed bot-tests would take only a few seconds and clicks. Nowhere near 20s per test.

Are you even reading what I’m writing?

Are you a botter, or why are you willfully trying to fk this discussion up with lies?

[Nana_Skalski]

Bots are cheating and unfair because they have non-human characteristics, mainly automation and persistence that is unfair advantage over human players with human abilities. Players who use bots are like those people who use doping in sport.

Doping in sport

Bot is software doping.

[Salvos_Rhoska]

Afaik, nothing except the most advanced bots could overcome the bot-tests I proposed. Im talking NSA/espionage level heuristic AI bots involving very complex integration of multiple softwares, and entire teams of programmers. Current EVE bots are nowhere near that capacity, nor the capacity of EVE botters to acquire or know how to use such complex bot systems.

Furthermore, if the bot-tests are randomly selected from a pool of several, we reduce that margin even further, as the bot would have to be capable of dealing with any number of very different bot-tests, as the EVE UI/client allows for.

CCP can periodically issue new forms/variants of my suggested bot-tests, that will wreck existing bots until reprogrammed to deal with the new ones, IF they can even break the existing ones, which I think they cant.

This puts CCP one step ahead of bots, always.

A human, however, can resolve them in a matter of maybe 5s and 1-5 clicks.
The ideal, ofc, is as fast a bot-test with as few clicks, for greatest efficiency vs bots, so as to not burden non-bot players unduly.

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For casual readers, this is not about a “captcha” with text, numbers or images you are used to when browsing the web. Im talking about bot/AI- tests that use the capacity of the EVE UI/client in ways a web browser cannot.

For you, it will just look like a very simple minigame that you can solve easily in less than 5s with very few clicks.

For bots, it will fk their ■■■■ up.
They cant deal with these.

To you its simple.
To bots its like an ant trying to cure cancer.

Something perhaps like the following examples:

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What about a moving element to click in a pop-up?
In the below image, the center of the vortex moves and you click it with the reticle cursor:

Or a simple sliding bar puzzle?
In the below image, you move the bars up and down to reveal the 1/2/3:

In the image below, you must rotate each disc so the numbers align between the green lines:

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Good luck to any programmer trying to code a bot for the disc example at the bottom. It will have to identify the randomized number locations, and turn the disc for each to match inbetween the green lines. Plus CCP can program the test so the green lines are randomly placed on top/bottom/left/right of the grid, so the bot also has to recognize into which space it has to turn all 3 discs so the numbers all are within it.

Sure, perhaps someone can do that after expending a great deal of time/effort. But what if the next pop-up bot test isnt this one as randomly selected from the test pool? What if CCP changes the dimensions of the discs, colors, numbers to images etc in the next update?

[Baba_Ji]

Having a bot problem?

Call 1-800-Vikings

When the ■■■■ gets deep,they get the job done.

[Teckos_Pech]

@Salvos_Rhoska

Yeah. That doesnt make any sense.

By that logic CCP should do nothing against bots, cos it apparently “might mean they become stronger and then they could win”

Its fking stupid.

No Salvos, it is called using a smart strategy. Doing nothing is not smart. Using a lazy and sloppy strategy is not smart.

Why are you struggling with this. I am not saying, “Do nothing.”

@Salvos_Rhoska

Explain how PLEX can be used to reduce the number of bots in the game currently.

It already is reducing the number of bots over what it would be without PLEX. We’ve gotten what we can from that strategy, now we need a new one…which is not easy. If good solid strategies were easy, in general, we’d all be billionaires living on our private estates.

@Salvos_Rhoska

It was your suggestion, yet you have nothing?

Yes, because a good strategy is not easy to come up with. Being innovative is not just, “Oh, I’ll be innovative…” and boom an (good) innovation occurs.

People like you say this kind of thing all the time, but it suggests a completely blinkered view. I used to run into it with regards to things like oil. “What will we do when oil runs out???” My response was, “We’ll figure something out.” They’d ask, “What?” I’d say, “I don’t know.” They’d respond, almost gleefully, “So nothing!!! We are doomed.” (These people are often quite misanthropic.) But the thing is we’ve been here before. We had Malthus and running out of food. Jevon and England running out of coal. And now oil production in the US is reaching a second peak…something these people claimed was impossible. Never mind that we have massive amounts of natural gas. And when you look at states like California which have recently increased their Renewable Portfolio Standard for electricity because the state was exceeding the current standard. And there is considerable interest in electricfying transportation. So instead of the nightmare scenario these people envisioned we live in…relative comfort and with a still positive outlook for the future. Just because I can’t see the next best strategy does not mean it does not exist. People suggesting different strategies is likely how it will be found.

@Anjyl_Took

I would be more than happy to concede your point if you could show me a bot that changes and evolves without requiring a developer. Or how EvE could change or evolve without requiring developers or players.

@Anjyl_Took

Anyway, it was an aside, and not essential to the conversation. It’s just a pet peeve of mine when people cite examples of “design” as “evolution.”

Considering I am appealing directly to developers and programmers in the process this is just blinkered stupidity. Deliberate obtuseness.

Jesus you are so blinkered it is astonishing for one so well educated. You can’t see that of course evolution is not just a natural process. That a very similar process works wherever people are involved as well. That people as a group use trial-and-error with a selection process to move things forward. That is not unlike what we see in biological systems. And in say an economic system there is no overall guiding intelligence. The market process is not the result of a single guiding intelligence, but actually of billions of people making decisions. Yet is produces novelty, order, and so forth very much like what we see in nature.

@Anjyl_Took

Yes! Of course yes! We want the only bots to be “the MRSA from of bots.” Are you saying that if we could go back in time and prevent Alexander Fleming from making penicillin, we should do it, just because MRSA came as a result of it?

Of course not and I said nothing of the like. But maybe using it like it was used was not such a grand idea.

@Anjyl_Took

I’m sure the analogy would be “they are putting checkpoints everywhere in the city where anyone who looks and acts like a gang member has to undergo an ID check…”

No, Nevyn is probably right. Botting takes place on the market, it takes place in mining, in missions, in anomaly ratting, and it probably is done in exploration as well. So many of the activities lots of non-botters would use would h ave to go through these “check points”.

@Baba_Ji

I’ll let this stand in isolation and ask you to explain this thought. Step by step the thought process of how Plex prohibits the desire for bots to exist in Eve.

Why would a player use a bot? To get ISK that they do not have time/or want to spend the time to grind for. Along comes PLEX a totally legal way to achieve the same end. To be clear, a player inclined to bot can now get the ISK he wants AND REDUCE HIS RISK OF A BAN TO ZERO.

Similarly, what is another use of bots? People who sell ISK for RL money. But the buyers are like the potential botter above. And again, we have a legal way to get the desired ISK AND REDUCE HIS RISK OF A BAN TO ZERO.

So PLEX would reduce botting. If PLEX were removed tomorrow there would likely be more bots.

Evidence? Consider how much ISK cost at an RMT site years ago. It was like $20/billion ISK. I haven’t looked lately, but last time I did it was something like $5/billion. The price fell because of PLEX. That drop in RMT ISK price means there will be fewer people involved in RMT ISK operations (the profits go down as the price goes down).

[Nevyn_Auscent]

@Salvos_Rhoska

B) Did you get the idea the minigame would take 20s?

The examples you gave would quite likely take 20 seconds to get right. Maybe not ‘exactly’ 20s, but they are not a single click. Take for example your sliding bars problem. That requires 6 separate click & hold actions.
Also it’s not just ‘2 clicks’. It’s multiple clicks every time the captcha comes up. If the captcha is only at login it’s easily dealt with by the bot operator, which means it has to come up regularly during game play. So now we have more than 2 clicks per captcha by your own examples. And more than 1 captcha per play session. So it’s now getting to annoying levels. You claim it wouldn’t annoy you but given you are pushing this idea I bet it would.
Also what happens when the captcha happens at a critical moment during a site, when you miscalculated something, and now you lose your ship. Or you solve it only to see a ganker landed on grid during that time. Across the number of people playing each day, these ‘very low odds’ events will happen on a regular basis.