Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use?

Communications Center General Discussion
1093

You’re completely oblivious to the real problem with RMT. RMT is not just botting, RMT crime organizations also steal credit card info to pay for subs and skill extractors (and the disputes for those cases cost a lot of money to companies) and also hacked accounts. So someone steals a CC info, buys N$ worth of stuff, and when the owner finds out CCP is up to spending anywhere between 3x and 10x N$ to clean up the mess with the bank, the credit card company, the card holder, et cetera. And that without even the potentiak to lose the customer. Then account hacking comes with its own downsides; cleaning the mess costs CCP a lot of GM resources to try to figure what was stolen, where did it end, how much could cost to recoup, et cetera, plus also the downsides of people finding out that their character is now an empty husk and needing free sP injectors to recover it.

RMTrs are stealing CCP’s property, causing them legal and financial trouble, causing lots of customer support work and are killing the income source of the company as legit players go away.

Every game that allows players to trade stuff with other players is a potential target for RMT. Adn the main reason why RMT happens, is because there is demand for it. People want to buy “gold” and trinkets at a cheaper price than the legitimate owner determines. And why in the name of the seven wisdoms would a company let someone sell their stuff for a lower price than them without even buying it first?

When a botter or a RMTer sells CCP’s property in the form of ISK, PLEX, spacehsisp or another digital product, CCP is losing the money they would have earned if a player had acquired them in the legitimate way. There is a ratio in which sub time become ingame assets, and botters just maximize that ratio. If a player must pay x sub months to get his first Titan, the botter will do it in 1/3 or 1/5 of the time just by playing 23.5/7. So CCP effectivley losses all those extra motnhs the real player would need -and that if the RMTr didn’t just use a stolen cc so CCP losses the sub money plus must face all the expenses of credit card fraud.

TL;DR: RMT costs a lot more of money than CCP could earn by tolerating it. From fraud cost to human resources workload to missing revenue as botters get a lot more bang fort heir buck than real players.

No company allows cirminals to steal them of their money. None. :no_good_woman:

2 Likes
1094

Also one new added layer is particular rmt websites knowing or unknowingly to their operator,now try and infect the buyers PC for even more nefarious conduct. Slave virtual currency generators.

1095

He’s got a point though, if CCP isn’t going to do ■■■■ about it, may as well pick at the corpse before just the bones are left due to RMT cartels.

1096

Then we are left with the solution that CCP cannot stop the bots since they have been growing in use in EVE over the last years despite CCP’s best efforts. Since other companies have been able to police their games and communicate frequently and effectively with their customers while CCP cannot, it appears that EVE’s developers lack the talent/skill/drive of the standard for the gaming community. Ruling out collusion by CCP doesn’t seem to offer any solice to the current EVE players, since it leaves few options: accept the status quo, join the botting hordes,or leave.

Could the last person leaving EVE kindly turn off the lights?

1097

Ha, even EVE Planets site used visitors cpu to mine, last time I have seen it in action. :rofl:

1098

Corpses start to stink and attract flies.

The article is an invitation to botters saying its open season on EVE.

They irony that PLEX, which was implemented to combat RMT, has instead ended up encouraging it.

1099

Pretty good article,covers all the major points:the Pirat botters,players frustration,potential isk damage and figures caused by the bots,CCP lack of action even after bots were killed and reported with video proof,bad development is even mentioned(chat bubbles) and the last major battle which was a bust.
I’m pretty sure we’ll have CCP Falcon come along in a little while in here to lock the thread on some dumb excuse or to tell us how their 2 man security team will work this weekend to ban another 1000 bot accounts while in the meantime my neighbouring bots which have been active for years as I found out keep doing their thing 23/7.
If it’s one thing I noticed is Crowd Control Productions(yes that’s what CCP means funny isn’t it) don’t like bad press so they’ll do the bare minimum to shut us up for another year or 2 while wasting more money on bad ideas as we have to deal with lag,isk,inflation,lack of ship rebalance or redesign,exploits(yes ghost training yes still here).

3 Likes
1100

At this stage, no one will believe what they say, so why would they even bother?

1101

CCP needs to start recording action times between certain activities. Particular mining and carrier ratting. Record times between each action and compare them with a program against themselves over time. You don’t need to do this for every activity, just a limited batch of people who can be easily marked. If over time it is found they are consistently making changes within a second or so then they are obviously botting.

1102

dunno if it’s apersonnal view but bots seems to win the war against mmo genre (and others multiplayers game too, just read about the 1 million bots banned in PUBG).
CCP done many $$ since these 15 last years to let it die this way, focused on another game…
i play FF14 too and they try to do a great job against bots and gave players some reports about it, for eve’isk, you just have to google to find lot of RMT site, still the same since years.
bot ratting is a fact, market botting too, maybe ccp must create a bot too to be efficient :slight_smile:
CCP BOT, help the game!

1103

Player reporting is a band-aid, at best.

Furthermore its repeatedly been shown that these reports take months to have effect.

If that truly is the primary mechanism behind CCPs systems of detecting bots, we are in far worse shape than I dare to imagine.

1104

until the players don’t have to play to destroy the economy.

1105

Its a good article - the only bit I think is a bit harsh is the criticism where the 6.5K battle took place - would like to see any other MMO try and handle those numbers and the complexity the battle brings

One point which some have raised, concerns whether RMT bots make or looses isk for CCP.

Take a single botting nyx, we’ll keep the isk made per hour figures simple for explanation purposes, so don’t quote me on them.

Say he runs 24/7, seven days a week, which for example the Omist Nyxs did. Say he makes for ease of explanation 3 bill a day which equates to 90 bill a month - Running that Nyx requires him to purchase a single plex once a month, one plex worth of profit to CCP as someone somewhere had to purchase it and put it on the market - 90 bill minus 1.5 bill = 88.5 bill isk net - They then sell that 88.5 bill to multiple other players.

So, CCP’s income from that botter is approximately the price of the purchase of a plex, £16.99

Now, lets say over that month, 25 players bought the remaining 88.5 bill of isk , an average of 3.5 bill each @ blackmarket cost of £18 each (these values are typical transactions that I have seen). Then each of these players in turn subbed their account by buying a plex off the market, spending the remaining 2 bill on ships = 25 x £16.99 plex sale back into CCP, as again someone had to buy the plexes and put them onto the market… but…, each of those 25 players are no longer subbing their accounts by monthly subscriptions (£9.99 a month), so minus 25 x monthly subscription fee of £9.99 = CCP profit 25 x £7

So, in the above, CCP, if it went that particular way with 25 players buying the isk and in turn using some of it to plex their accounts - CCP would make a total of 25 x £7 plus the initial botters plex of £16.99 = Increased profits of £191.99 for CCP indirectly from that one single bot.

If on the other hand, one or two players bought all of the 88 bill up and used it to purchase in game items, when normally they would have legitimately purchased plexes off the market, then that’s a big loss for CCP.

So, its down to what the RMT’d isk is being used for. My guess the average guy plexes and buys some ships with it monthly, in which case CCP is making from it, big time - It appears the greater the price difference between plex and subscription costs, the more they make - If I’m correct, then its no wonder plex prices are being driven up, subscription fees are being kept stable and bots and isk purchases are permitted to run riot

Furthermore, as more players are now plexing their accounts than would have, there is a greater demand on the number of plexes purchased which in turn pushes the price up further = more profit to CCP

And… if this is correct, hit all the bots and take them out of game will mean CCP’s bottom line will be hit significantly, which for a struggling company may be the final straw which breaks its back. Leave them in and we’re on a slow road to demise.

I’m an old man with zero background in economy stuff - will one of you whizz kids check my figures and logic? I might have it all wrong and missing something, if so I apologies now if that’s the case

1 Like
1106

yes but you are also missing the point for massive isk flying around in game as is with not a lot of sinks. if you buy plex you aren’t sink any of that isk except for some taxes here and there, and ccp doesn’t like the inflation which is why every csm you read is based on destruction and wanting more sinks.

1107

It can be argued that lack of isk inflation is due to loss of isk via player attrition vs bot proliferation.

In other words, the more people leave the game with their isk, the more isk earned by botting buoys the impression inflation is not occurring.

PS: I hate this “you are missing/forgetting x” trope.
PPS: Isk is very hard to sink in EVE, especially via ship/asset destruction (ie: PvP) .The overwhelming majority of isk sink is via player attrition or NPC costs, neither of which are an issue for a botter.

1108

It goes on for a while until the players figure out what’s happening. After we figure out what’s happening, some of us rage unsub and won’t come back even if CCP actually did bother to get rid of these guys.

Money leaves the game, players (content) leave the game, and nobody’s happy.

1 Like
1109

I assume by the context you mean whether or not they increase $ for ccp. They do whether they RMT or not.

Bots generate isk. Isk inflation reduces the value of isk. Prices for things go up, but income does not go up to keep pace. This puts market pressure on people to spend $ on plex. No convoluted math needed, just recognize where different actions apply pressure.

Yes, the only real isk sink EVE has is players quitting or getting banned. However, look at the money supply from the MER. Inflation is still happening.

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To give that graph context, the isk supply doubled while the TCU dropped by 1/3 in the same timeframe.

1110

I agree. Ive been saying that all along.
We have found common ground.

Now counting down to Teckos appearing and claiming isk inflation is not a problem.

1111

This proclamation may indeed be proof that no one is beyond redemption.

1112

I don’t understand.

Please elaborate.

Ive been arguing for years that the PLEX market is player controlled, and CCP has lost control of its function especially vs RMT.