Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use?

Communications Center General Discussion
1416

Dont worry. They dont move.

Just take sufficient distance to accelerate/gain velocity, engage AB/MWD and fly right at it to watch them bump km away.

Contact someone like Ima or someone else at CODE for specifics on optimum bump fits. Im sure they will be glad to help especially you, especially in this endevour. The math of it all is calculable. Its not magic. Typically its Minmatar related ships for faster acceleration, but mass is also important.

I used to do this cos I hated multiboxers (botters or not) depleting MY ice fields, without knowing the optimum bump fit. I tell you, the PMs alone are worth it. Goddam they get angry at being bumped off the field.

If they lose even a few seconds on their optimum yields, they lose their minds.

1 Like
1417

Salvos Rhoska
It would help if CCP was more open with how they collate data, in this case related to active isk delta which is a very important metric for many reasons.
Especially since the active isk delta is where we as a community can somewhat ascertain how much value has “disappeared” by either inactive or banned accounts, which is pertinent to how botters/RMT may be performing in any given period.

And there you have the very reason CCP will never reveal the information in a way players could use it to see how much botting/RMT is actually costing legitimate players.

CCP is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to botting - They can’t let it go unhindered (by bans etc), yet the income from those bots in monthly subs, the PCU and other statistics required to keep a gaming company in the black, this would all have to have an effect on CCP’s bottom line and how they deal with bots.

Speculation - My opinion only and not based on real facts.
The most recent ban wave (2,000 accounts) is a pretty poor show when it comes to the overall problem of bots. If they so easily found 2,000 accounts to ban due to the overwhelming outcry from players and media - How many active bots are there in the game?
I’d hazard a guess, the most recent ban wave is but the tip of the iceberg. What lies beneath the water (or hidden away in the far reaches of space) is far more troubling for legitimate players and CCP alike.

Right now there are 35,000 accounts logged in to TQ (also the average for the last 12 months), how many of those are bots or or in some way connected to RMT activities?
35k average - 2,000 recently banned for botting - that’s roughly 8% of the active player base banned for being involved in botting/RMT.
Can CCP afford (for many reasons) to get rid of all bots?

1418

Number of bots banned and number of bots in game are not how CCP measures the performance.

The relevant metric is customer sentiment.

1419

I’m well aware of this but it still doesn’t answer the underlying questions.
So if CCP didn’t use “player sentiment” as a goal post would those 2,000 bots have been banned?
Why does it take such an outcry to move CCP to take action?

How many will be banned in February, March, April and so on?
How will CCP go about keeping players informed regarding the botting RMT issue? Or will it take the next public outcry to get another placating - Look we did something.

NB; Player sentiment among those I speak to regularly is - CCP needs to step up.

1420

It’s a bit dangerous (wrong word) to be writing that 2000 is 8% of the active player base.

The number of characters logged in (or in this case the average PCU for the year) isn’t a direct measure of the active player base. The total number of players logging in over a day and over a month is much larger than the average PCU for each day.

The latest figures we had back in 2015, put the average PCU at only 10% of the unique number of players that log in each month for example.

So 35K average PCU now, suggests somewhere around 350K active player base if those figures still hold, and that falls within the most recent values estimated from data 300K (Ripard Teg long term data) to 370K (estimate from 2016 financials).

As for the number of 2000 being banned last month, I don’t think that is anything other than normal for CCP. When the security team responded in a thread last November (may have been late October), they’d banned 23,000 accounts for 2017 up to that point. So around 2000 bans per month seems pretty normal.

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1421

Bots probably constitute a more consistent and constant % of PCU, than non-botters per account.

Reason for this being that botters ideally want to be logged in botting, for as long as possible and on as many days as possible.

Also, botters ideally want to run as many accounts botting, simultaneously, as possible.

We dont know if CCP monitors /flags account activity that grossly exceeds a humans physiological capacity to perform, with 23hrs/7days a week being the obvious impossible extreme.

Even one week of that activity level is absolute proof of the account either botting or account-sharing. Tbh even 3 days of 23hrs/day in a week should be a massive red flag.

As Scipio points out <2000 accounts per month seems to be either CCPs maximum capacity for investigating/banning bots+illegals/month, or (unlikely) there are only <2000 illegal activity accounts per month in the game to ban (of which a % are botters).

1422

Ok, I can accept a “punkbuster” type solution may not be effective if it only scans active memory, and the botter uses a VM to get around it. As you say it would be no point scanning the local machine for bot programs. EDIT also I have considered that operating systems have software that support any kind of remote logging, so the “punkbuster” could also scan the local machine for the processes used in remote computer usage.

I’ve been thinking about how the bot program achieves it’s goals and I’ve considered a method that would analyse any keystrokes or mouse data input into Eve.

So a “punkbuster” could still apply. A Bot must be able to analyse who is in local constantly. A human player would simply achieve watching local with their eyes however, a bot would need to constantly right click underneath where his player is listed in local if the bot is able to open an option window then that means someone has entered local and the bot is programmed to dock until it can’t get an option menu while clicking underneath his name listed in local.

In my opinion it shouldn’t be hard to design a “punkbuster” that analyses keyboard and mouse data input into Eve. It would check for unusual mouse or keyboard usage like the example I gave of how a Bot watches local. Perhaps this is a solution that could work regardless of if Eve and the bot program were run on separate vm’s.

I could be wrong, does anyone have a theory on how a bot watches local?

Edit: yes, so ccp could redesign local in a way that could reveal if a bot is being used to “watch” local since this is the only way for a bot to keep safe we now know the bot must have a method of managing this.

1423

Remote logging/playing is allowed.
CCP doesnt care where you access the client from, only what PC the client is running on and its connection to the servers.
For example, logging into your home PC while on vacation in Bali to play some EVE by remote on laptop/tablet etc is allowed.

Use of VMs is “ambiguous”. I dont think CCP has the means to detect their use.

IP tracking is not reliable, due to dynamic IPs , virtual IPs, shared IP networks, IP tunnelling etc.

Technically, it would only be a breach if you use multiple Alphas simultaneously or Alphas simultaneous with Omegas.

This is better done server side, by analyzing commands sent from the client.
A client side program like that would be basically a keylogger…
Client side programs carry a risk of being compromised and/or the data they send being intercepted.

Preventing bots from reacting to Local is one way, but doesnt prevent the botting activity itself.
Furthermore, only some bots bother reacting to someone in Local.

Removing Local from NS would go a long way towards achieving this with no program/client/server side changes, in space where botting is arguably most valuable, undetected, unobstructed. and perhaps most proliferated in terms of isk/resource farming.

If you have more questions Ill do my best to answer them, to help bring you up to speed on bots.

1424

TLDR. Salvos, I don’t need your input to bring me up to speed on anything.

1425

Honestly, I think you do.
Ive been watching your posts, and its clear you have very little understanding of what bots are or how they operate.

I think you know that yourself.
It would be foolish of you not to avail yourself of any and all information you can get on the issue, including from me or my posts.

This isnt about our personal differences.
This is about how to eliminate bots, which are our mutual enemy.

1426

No, youre just watching for convo’s you can get involved in and then claim you know everything about the points made.

You have no idea what my background is. please leave my replies alone and bother someone else, I was actually talking to Shallana not you.

1427

As you wish.

1428

Ok that being the case - It is still around 8% of the active player base (over any given 24 hour period) banned for RMT or Botting.

Take the high side of Ripard Teg’s long term estimate 370k - 23k banned for botting in 2017 - an unknown amount not caught, still taking money out of CCP’s hand and affecting the value of everything we as players use and produce.

My post wasn’t as clear as I’d have liked - The 35k was to represent the numbers active on the server at any given time - Of that number we can presume roughly 8% of those active at a specific time are involved in Botting and or RMT activities. The numbers you provided only seem to back this up…

1429

I found this site sometime ago.

I don’t use Steam but I present it as additional info from Steam users.
It may be commonly known for those within that circle idk.

It came to my attention that there may be a correlation worthy to note.
When Steam has promotions that reduce cost,why wouldn’t a gamer in the business of Botting and RMT take advantage of it? That includes subscription price and PLEX sales.

Beyond the Steam incentives I don’t see a reason to use them. Then again whole Botter and RMT practice is,I find shady.
When Eve online bans Botters and RMT practices it could make sense to notify Steam if their customers were banned and why. By doing that a Botter,RMT player takes a double hit in loss.

1430

Salvos Rhoska
We dont know if CCP monitors /flags account activity that grossly exceeds a humans physiological capacity to perform, with 23hrs/7days a week being the obvious impossible extreme.

Even one week of that activity level is absolute proof of the account either botting or account-sharing. Tbh even 3 days of 23hrs/day in a week should be a massive red flag.

How would measuring a humans physiological capacity be used to find bots?
I have 3 accounts that spend 23.5hrs/7 days per week logged in, I am only small fry compared to some. I know of one player who has over 40 accounts + his main logged in for the whole time the server is up barring blackouts and internet issues.

People have accounts logged in for extended periods of time for various reasons not associated with botting - Although 2 of my accounts are currently watching someone I suspect of botting.

As Scipio points out <2000 accounts per month seems to be either CCPs maximum capacity for investigating/banning bots+illegals/month, or (unlikely) there are only <2000 illegal activity accounts per month in the game to ban (of which a % are botters).

This does seem to be the case, either way. So maybe to combat the situation more thoroughly CCP should expand the security team, at least on a temporary basis to drive home the message Botters and those involved in RMT WILL GET BANNED.
Right now it seems the risk vs reward for botting/rmt is in favour of the bad guy - It’s time CCP sent a clear decisive message - And make that message very public, not by naming names or anything but by providing regular updates regarding how many botters/rmt’rs are caught (monthly or even bimonthly statistics posted for the world to see)…

Nothing deters those doing illegal things better than showing them the risks out-way the rewards.
Banning a few thousand accounts only affects those banned if it is kept a secret - Publish numbers in very visible places and that in itself becomes a deterrent for others.

Let the security team boast about what a great job they do - and win back the support of those affected by wrong doers.
Threads like this would disappear - Could be replaced with “well done CCP”, “Thanks Security Team” threads.

1431

@Salvos_Rhoska

Holy fuckin shite, you’re still at it buddy ?

Damn…

1432

Do you either live in a timezone or have work / sleep schedule such that it allows you to log off and back on at resets ? If so where ? If not, then its botting.

Does your “friend” with 40 accounts actually tab between them all and perform functions manually or automates them ? If he / she tabs between them all and does everything manually, actually plays the game, then how do they do it ? if not then its botting.

In all my years of Eve I have seen literally just one single person that was capable of truly multiboxing without automating anything. He did it from work using 4 PCs with a total of 6 monitors and actually ran a 10 ship incursion fleet. The guy was really on top of things, had it organized so different function ships were on different screens etc. Everyone else I met like that beyond 2-3 accounts at a time fell flat on their face and is a damn liar and is botting regardless if they admit it or not.

1433

The time is approaching where anonymous gaming will be a thing of the past. The time of irresponsible gamers will be a thing of the past. Accountability of gamers will be directly tied into the fabric of society along with any other aspect deemed similar. At that point if a gaming company doesn’t want or allow botting or even multiboxing they will be able to enforce it and have laws to back it up. I’m not suggesting I agree with the coming changes but its inevitable they will occur.

Facial recognition is here and will become not a replacement to the known ID measures but a substantial supplement. The new LOL phones are the start. I expect soon to see all computers requiring the same tech to start and use them.

Something to think about and most especially to the virtual criminal.

Botters and RMT will be sanctioned or eliminated per the companies desire.

1434

Still not quite.

The last figures, discussed by CCP Quant at Fanfest in 2015:

image

So over any given 24 hour period, there are far more players logging in than just the peak number online during the day.

For example, from those figues, when the average PCU was 41K, the number of unique players (not characters) seen over each 24 hours averaged 175K (and 420K unique players for the month).

The issue of the size of the player base isn’t as simple as just the PCU figure.

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1435

I said activity.
Not simply being logged in, inactive.

Activity in this context means the client is sending commands to the server, to perform actions ingame.

Its not illegal to afk for 23hrs/7days a week.
It is illegal to bot.

Now re-read the post with the above in mind.
I think you will see what I’m getting at.

The onus of ideas like this, is to not focus on the bot itself, as much as the botter behind the bots. There are human limitations, such as its impossible for a human to actively mine 23/7. Its not possible.

Any character that has been mining nigh constantly for 23/7, has to be a bot or account-sharing.

Agreed, and they just made it even better for bots by reducing the suspension to 3 days.

Now it doesnt even cost a sub/PLEX as penalty, whereas before it did.

Completely incomprehensible change, in my view.

Also they have NOT confirmed if they will confiscate assets/value earned by the botting.

As we all have recognized, what will happen is after the 3 day suspension, the botter will extract SP/transfer assets/characters, and start all over again (forcing CCP to find them, all over again, and start the process, all over again, probably not even knowing that botter was already caught once before).

If I was a botter, Id be doing cartwheels whilst laughing at this change.