Eve Bots - are they a bad thing, is CCP complicit in their use?

What you don’t seem to understand is that anyone supporting bots will have hand in the destruction of Eve and the de-valuing of in-game currency. You really shouldn’t accuse Teckos and others of this when their views throughout this thread show concern for Eve and that they want bots gone.

You really are a very awkward person to chat with on any level and I am unsure what is wrong with you. Why can’t you just calm down and accept this thread as speculation? We can only know so much about how CCP deals with the Bots.

You spoil every good chat with your accusations and paranoia. I for one think you’ve reached a point where you have to take a look at dealing with whatever type of anxiety you suffer from. Do some research and chat with medical professionals about herbal teas like Valerian, Passionflower, lemon balm and camomile these can help sharpen your thinking and keep you calm. When I drink these teas I get a much better perspective, I feel positive, encouraged, optimistic.

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He may very well know this.

Any possible reason?

Hmmm :thinking: I’m going to stop at this point.

Teckos Pech
I’ll give you 3/10, or an F.

Actually it is worth at least a D minus, simply because good points or bad he is stimulating others thought processes toward a common goal.

  1. While it does give the same information to all - For botters, knowing their activities can be tracked “live” by the player base might stop them logging in for a while.
    The ideal is to be rid of all bots and RMT related activities - I think we can all agree this will never happen, the best we can hope for is a large reduction in numbers. Maybe letting them see “big brother is watching” via a heat map or some such thing could see some of the less dedicated cheats give up.
    The map would be ideal for heat map NPC tracking - You can already track so much information, all it really needs is a way to more accurately track “current activity”. By current I mean, last hour, 6 hours, 12 hours. Average players in system, average NPC’s killed
    I can see, average pilots in space for last 30 minutes, number currently docked and active, jumps for the last hour BUT the only indication of NPC’s destroyed is over 24 hours.
    I can see a system where - just under 32k npc’s were destroyed in the last 24 hours (were they all killed in a 3 or 4 hour period or over 24 hours) - there are 33 pilots in space over the last 30 minutes - there are no pilots currently docked and active.
    Give us a way to track NPC kills compared to pilots more accurately, 1 hour, 6 hours, 12 hours, help players help the security team find bots and get kills based on current information.
    More intel can only go towards creating more content…

  2. I agree, a three day warning suspension seems pointless, it should be at least 30 days. If someone who has been caught botting wants to play as a legitimate player, allow them to apply to the security team after a 30 day period for permission to create a new account (all previous accounts are sent to the grave yard, along with any an all assets they had). This way there is a record of who that player was (as a bot) and who the main character (account details) are for his/her comeback.

    1. I believe the security team is doing their best, with very limited resources. No software of method of number crunching can speed up the process used to identify and punish wrong doers, unless you remove the human element and risk legitimate players being banned.
      The security team may have software that can identify 2,000 potential bots per day but only as many as [the humans that make up] the team can positively identify can be banned each day.
      I personally don’t want the security team taking shortcuts and see legit players banned simply for doing something odd, that may at first appear to be bot related but isn’t.
  3. As a multiboxer - If CCP could come up with a method of 2FA that didn’t require so much time and screwing around to use, I would use it.
    Link 2FA to the launcher + email/mobile phone number, so when I open the launcher it generates a single use code sent to email/text for use on ALL accounts linked to that email/phone number

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Okay, lets go with a D- then.

Here is something I came across almost 2 decades ago that has some relevance.

Carnival Booth: An Algorithm for Defeating the Computer-Assisted Passenger Screening System

To address these vexing security problems, the FAA has been trying in recent years to employ information technology to boost the overall efficiency of security screening. The kernel idea behind their approach is to be moe intelligent about which passengers are selected for rigorous inspections. Intuitively, the FAA argues, if you only have the ability to scrutinize a small percentage of passengers, it seems best to spend the bulk of time carefully searching those who are likely to be terrorists and not waste much time searching those who have a small chance of posing harm. Why frisk Eleanor, the 80-year-old grandmother from Texas when you can stop Omar, the 22-year-old student fresh from Libya? If you can develop a profile describing who is likely to be a terrorist, then those are the people upon whom you should concentrate your security efforts.

Drawing from these intuitive underpinnings, the crown jewel of the FAA’s information technology efforts is a system called the Computer Assisted Passenger Screening system (CAPS). The FAA contends that since CAPS uses profiles to pinpoint potential terrorists for closer inspection, it will not only result in the apprehension of more criminals, but will also make security screening more expedient for well-meaning citizens. Though in place since 1999, CAPS has gained much more attention as a promising counter-terrorism tool in the wake of September 11. The FAA already augmented the system in January, and plans for further expansion are underway.[3]

In our paper, we show that although these intuitive foundations might be compelling, their implementation in CAPS is flawed. That is to say that any CAPS-like airport security system that uses profiles to select passengers for increased scrutiny is bound to be less secure than systems that randomly select passengers for thorough inspection. Using mathematical models and computer simulation, we show how a terrorist cell can increase their chances of mounting a successful attack under the CAPS system as opposed to a security system that uses only random searches. Instinct may suggest that CAPS strengthens security, but it in fact introduces a gaping security hole easily exploitable by terrorist cells. It should be noted that CAPS has also received immense criticism from privacy advocates and civil libertarians[4], but in this paper we restrict our discussion to a purely technical perspective and the legal and policy implications of such an analysis.

Replace the FAA with CPP and terrorists with bots. Mechanistics approaches will always be defeated just as easily as the NPCs in Damsel in Distress are defeated.

This transparency is the Achilles’ Heel of CAPS; the fact that individuals know their CAPS status enables the system to be reverse engineered. You, like Simonyi, know if you’re carryons have been manually inspected. You know if you’ve been questioned. You know if you’re asked to stand in a special line. You know if you’ve been frisked. All of this open scrutiny makes it possible to learn an anti-profile to defeat CAPS, even if the profile itself is always kept secret. We call this the “Carnival Booth Effect” since, like a carnie, it entices terrorists to “Step Right Up! See if you’re a winner!” In this case, the terrorist can step right up and see if he’s been flagged.

Sure, set up a program to look for “Dumb bots” that are ratting 23.5/7, but here is what will happen, those programs will eventually catch very little. They’ll catch the guy who can code who writes his own botting program and is dumb about it. But even that guy will realize that botting 23.5/7 will get him caught, so he’ll modify his program to bot 2-4 hours with a random log off timer after say an hour. He might even have his bot dock up for 45 minutes just like a real person who h as to deal with some RL crap or wife aggro.

Here is another article that could shed some light.

Asset Pricing Under Endogenous Expectations in an Artificial Stock Market

In this paper we propose a theory of asset pricing that assumes fully heterogeneous agents whose expectations continually adapt to the market these expectations aggregatively create. We argue that under heterogeneity, expectations have a recursive character: agents have to form their expectations from their anticipations of other agents’ expectations, and this self-reference precludes expectations being formed by deductive means. So, in the absence of being able to deduce expectations, agents—no matter how rational—are forced to hypothesize them. Agents therefore continually form individual, hypothetical, expectational models or “theories of the market,” test these, and trade on the ones that predict best. From time to time they drop hypotheses that perform badly, and introduce new ones to test. Prices are driven endogenously by these induced expectations. Individuals’ expectations therefore evolve and “compete” in a market formed by others’ expectations. In other words, agents’ expectations co-evolve in a world they co-create.

This article looks at stock market traders and the strategies they use to try and increase their returns. Given different traders (the assumption of heterogeneity) and the trial-and-error for new strategies the result is that while strategies work for awhile, they inevitable fail, and as a result you’ll see bubbles and crashes. Thinking similarly about botting we’d likely see strategies emerge that work…and as CCP adapts, those strategies will disappear possibly quite quickly.

This does not mean “Do nothing.” But the idea here is that there is a complex game being played. And we are sitting largely on the outside of game and trying to look in. It is like watching a poker game where we only know one of the players and we don’t know anything about their hand or their strategies. We can’t even see their bets. And this discussion is similar to thinking we are watching a chess game where we can see everything. We are all ignorant doofii…where some of us think they aren’t one of the ignorant doofii.

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This isnt about me, you, or Teckos, or any one else as people.
This is about botters and bots.

You yourself referred earlier to the Bot War.

Surely you understand/agree that botters, bot aspirants and those that benefit from them have a vested interest in sabotaging any option introduced here that would threaten their interests,

This is very ironic.
I have offered several times to discuss with you in voice, yet you have always refused.
The offer still stands.
I am not what you think I am.
If you agreed to talk directly, you would see that in an instant.


All I did, was submit a list of options presented, for convenience of new comers in a 1k+ thread.

May all judge for themselves the interest of posters responding to that, or the validity of each suggestion.

So, its all gone quiet on the rage against bot front.

I take it null sec been purified of the ratting and explorer bots. That the guy who ran those Nyxs has been suitable punished and an investigation has been held and finalised into his corps activities with appropriate action being taken where needed

That FW is now free of bots, as are highsec courier agents

That the market has been swept clean and their isn’t a bot in sight there either.

That trillions upon trillions of RMT’d isk has been seized and that buyers have learnt that purchasing isk off the black market isn’t a permitted shortcut in Eve and wont be tolerated

This must be the case, unless… unless… the Eve community is so gullible, short sighted and so easily distracted and appeased that CCP can throw them a bone in the way of some words in a Dev post coupled with some token bans carried out on overtime one weekend and everyone believes everything’s ok now.

So, which is it?

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The community is restocking on pitchforks and torches for the next thing to be outraged about, after CCP made a few posts and appeared to listen.

Community outrage is pretty fickle.

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Things went quiet in the areas I was watching. Today I did some scouting around and it seems that bot farmers have setup shops again.

Time to break out the antimatter and put them on the killboard.
Along with the rest of the vermin.

image

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WTS: Pitchforks, tar, feathers, and torches…

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What would you do when your boss tells you “The fact is that we don’t ■■■■■■■ care and your job is to tell them that fact in a way that doesn’t enrage them”? Can you do any better?

They reduced the penalty for botting from 30days to 3 days.

I think that pretty much says it all.

I didn’t quite remember…But was this post closed some days ago? If so why is it reopened?

citation needed

Google or search dev blogs for the recent change in policy.
Im not defending a dissertation here. The facts are readily available.


Afaik, thread may have been temporarily locked for cleaning, but has been open since. It just dropped off the radar since apparently people lost interest in the topic.

Players caught botting will get a painless chance to mend their wicked ways

Is this claim gonna be rational? Or will most bots just be disposable alts? In another way, this could be interesting if CCP actually meant to lure botters into releasing more information because of a shorter ban.

Edit: well, this was already discussed over on the Dev Blog: Security: Different times - Different ways - #223 by Salvos_Rhoska thread. Looks like CCP just withdrew in latter parts of the post. Will it be the case for this post too?

They, parahrased, said they would try to keep more update/contact going with the community, but so far havent seen that materialize.

They havent separately answered if value earned through botting will be confiscated, or what they are going to do about caught botters stripmining their characters of SP/value and just starting again on another account.

TLDR: As I said, pretty much all that changed, was they reduced the penalty from 30 days to 3 days.

Everyone can decide for themselves whether that was a rational/wise choice, or not…

CCP has always had a past history of assuming if players didn’t complain loudly about a feature, it was fine in its current iteration. Their conclusion is obviously faulty (see their conclusions on missions), but it allows them to rationalize that their allocation of company resources is correct; that what CCP percieves is needed is actually what players are asking for them to do. Without a loud and continuing protest about the impact of bots in EVE, I imagine that CCP hopes that the clamour will die down and their development plans and priorities will be able to return to the statous quo. They hope their customers remain passive, especially when those cutomers are asking CCP Devs to expend extra effort and resources for improvements outside their narrow “official” roadmap.

Instead of cracking down on botters, they reduced the penalty from 30days, to 3days.

That is all that happened.

I cant explain it or understand it, but that is all that happened.