You claim that people say the game isn’t P2W ‘because they enjoy the game’.
Would it not be more logical if people enjoy the game because they think it is not P2W in their opinion?
Why do you switch cause and effect? Is it because you can frame people to appear like hypocrites that way?
I like how you took good arguments against your position and pre-emptively called them “Frequently Uttered Excuses” as though that invalidates them.
I don’t think Eve is pay to win at all. I think you’re completely wrong.
In the box with the honest people
Right. That’s why a search for “EVE P2W” turns up like a couple dozen threads over the past decade. Great to know you’re in touch with ‘everyone’ though, I’ll keep that in mind next time I need a rumor spread. And if you think refuting the BS nonsense somebody’s spouting because he watched a video that agrees with him = “supporting a game you like” then you’ve got some pretty big blinders on.
More nonsense. Trying to remain sub-only and not following the industry lead into F2P with microtransactions was killing EVE. Go check the player charts from 2014 to 2016, when CCP was finally forced by desperation to modernize. Too late to prevent them needing to sell the company though.
You haven’t made a single point about how monetization harmed the game. You haven’t made a single point about how new players are supposed to be able to catch up without monetization. And you still keep trying to portray the situation as “I’m morally superior because I reject P2W, and you guys are all blind sheep because you don’t agree with me”.
Try making some real points instead of bleating baseless platitudes.
Then go find a better game. self-anointed white knights like you don’t do anything positive for eve online
+1
This happens very often where straw man is created going “someone who paid but is new will lose to someone who has knowledge but didn’t pay, thus not p2w”, which is mostly true of course but in reality that is not really the issue. The reality is that someone who DOES understand AND pays will do better/faster/more.
Of course it is the case. Show me one single player who, by virtue of spending extra cash, has learned how to avoid a gate camp. Or one who learned how to adjust orbiting distance and speed in function of weapons tracking. Or even one who learned how to fit a ship properly. Cash doesn’t do that. Time does. Taking the time does. SP injection reduces time a new player should spend figuring out what to do with the levels he already has and make the most out of it. SP injection for a new player feeds his illusion of “catching up”. There is no catching up in the end, there is all the rest that amounts to time spent in the game.
And what the store has taught that player is that it is good to spend more money and trying to take shortcuts. That player is far better off using a brain to figure out what makes sense and what does not in an environment loaded with distractions and choices, as in real life. Instant gratification and never having to figure out what constitutes real value usually meets a rock hard wall with a lot more frustration and ache than actually playing the game, and learning how to make the ISK most efficiently to buy those 50 frigates to engage with in a risky pvp environment. What do they actually think they are buying ?!
You make the mistake of confusing “the convenience flavor of the decade” with “creating the next generation of EvE players”. The ones who do not have the time to play, learn and experience, the ones who try to cut corners, do you really think that those are the ones who will become the next generation of long term players. because their instant gratification has been addressed for today ?! No, those are people who merely provide extra cash for a short while. That’s good for ccp, but does nothing for the game itself.
We’re talking about extra illusions offered on top of the normal and expected illusion of playing an MMO, a virtual world where the illusion should start and end. Not only is it ethically questionable to sell an illusion that one may be “better” or “catching up”, it’s also completely bogus. A clueless person will suffer far more extensive losses in game, and you know it.
Yeah ok, I thought that was obvious:
This is my opinion, if you see it different, fine, but it doesn’t invalidate how I view the game as it is today. Sadly it gets turned more and more into a store front.
This should actually pretty much do it. I don’t think that new players need more hand holding apart from that.
That is just your interpretation because you feel very insecure as a P2W player. The problem is not that you are fine with it, but that you completely reinterpret what P2W means just so you don’t have to accept the fact that you play a P2W game.
And the issue with that is that it makes you defend all sorts of complete crap that harms the game.
I play a P2W game. Obviously. See, that is not difficult. The difference is that I don’t feel like I have to defend every stupid monetization scheme and act like CCP’s CFO to justify playing a P2W game
I haven’t even told you about my diversity agenda for the game yet.
Indeed.
Liars gotta lie.
Gotta make hasty generalization when that could promote their opinion.
Gotta make causations out of correlations when it floats their boat.
Why do you assume there is just one interpretation of what P2W means to someone?
Why do you assume people change their interpretation of P2W to fit the game they like playing instead of the other way around, where people enjoy playing the games they think fit their idea of a fair game?
I already said before that you’re switching cause and effect, and you insist in doing so in order to make people appear hypocritical. You’re deliberately twisting logic.
Enough about these other players, why are you still playing a game which so obviously does not your idea of a fair game?
Sure, but this whole post was about the P2W scale a certain Youtuber created, in where EVE ends up pretty high on a 7/10. I’m not talking about all your subjective feelings.
I rarely play, though the reason why I sometimes still play EVE is because there is no other game like it.
I don’t like that it is completely P2W, but it simply has a monopoly on some rather unique game play you don’t find somewhere else. I rather would like it to be less P2W and focus more about on being a good game more players enjoy playing than trying to squeeze as much money out of the ones who are still left.
I’m like a disappointed parent. I love EVE, but I’m not happy with how it’s addicted to micro-transaction and short term monetary gains at the cost of it’s future. I rather it got it’s ■■■■ together and became a game I could be proud of and not just one I play because there is no other option for a certain itch.
/thread
Mr Epeen 
You’re accusing me of ‘subjective feelings’ yet you claim EVE is ‘completely P2W’.
Hypocritical much?
Anyway, I still have not heard a realistic alternative for EVE from you that would be less ‘pay to win’.
Your idea of removing PLEX would immediately be replaced by a flourishing RMT market, which wouldn’t make the game any less P2W in pracice, (but with a much higher occurrence of nefarious activities like botting and gold spamming).
And like others mentioned, EVE would not survive without the income from PLEX either. So you would not only have a RMT-ridden game without PLEX which is equally ‘P2W’ according to your own definition, but it would also die.
You have an idealistic idea of what the game should look like, but it’s unrealistic.
Once tried to convince my friend that Eve isn’t pay-2-win…
… Didn’t go well.
Probably all Eve players that stick with the game for longer go through the stage of frustration because no one else than the players really understand this game of ours and the scale of it.
You can buy 1000000000 PLEX and have all the skills but it won’t do you nothing.
Probably just speeds up the time it takes for one to burn out and quit.
EVE is an easy 7/10 on Yuzima’s Pay4Fun scale.
Liar.
You don’t have to pay to win EVE Online, if you want to win EVE all you have to do is never sign in again or outright biomass all your characters. 
Sorry, but I made no claims whatsoever regarding the creation of the next generation of EVE players. Tarak and yourself framed the issue in terms of catch-up, or how it would mislead newer players into spending for resources while skipping learning the game. I merely responded to that.
In fact, after perusing over a dozen “Is EVE P2W?” threads, all I see are established EVE players arguing with established EVE players about how much is or should be available to buy for RL $$. Mixed with the occasional new guy asking “Hey before I start, should I be concerned that EVE is too much P2W?”.
People like @Gerard_Amatin and others have given complete and fair answers, eg. Reddit - Dive into anything and so far the only answer I’ve seen from the potential new guys is “OK thanks I’ll give it a try then”.
None of them are expressing outrage. None of them are saying OK that’s it, I’ll never play! The only people talking about the harm that P2W does to ‘new guys’ is old players.
From my own experience, nobody at all drops $2,000 on the game to get started and “catch up”. I’ve seen players buy Plex to trade for ISK so they do whatever in-game while skipping the ISK grind. I’ve seen players buy Plex to buy/trade for skill injectors so they can switch a mining character to a cyno scout or an explorer to a stealth bomber. I’ve seen players buy Plex so they can shift skill points from one of their characters to another of their characters.
I’ve never seen someone complain they bought Plex to get into a big ship in-game and then got killed immediately because they didn’t know how to play. And I’m pretty sure you and Tarak have defended ganking, scams, gate camps etc. before, or at least said “that’s part of the game, learn how to deal with it”. And there are hundreds of threads on those things, not this invisible group of P2W-disadvantaged players you’re imagining.
But by far the most players I’ve seen talk about Plex are talking about how they’re planning to play more and grind more and earn more ISK so they can buy Plex to Omega their accounts. So this appears to cause more playtime and more striving for effectiveness, not less.
At any rate, I’m not trying to wind up you up here. You have strong opinions about this and that’s fine. But if you want me to believe the “it hurts people who spend money to get ahead” argument, you’d best be able to show me some of those people.
They dont complain, they usually weep silently before rage quitting.
Usually someone from a third world country with a devalued currency compared to the dollar or euro. They burn out trying to achieve the self imposed milestone and stop logging in shortly after achieving it
A nice part about PLEX is that it allows people from third world countries to play for their premium instead of paying for it.
Assuming two players have an equal amount of time, buying premium with ISK is a relatively much better deal for people with less spending power because they’re playing from a country with lower pay, or are in a phase in life that doesn’t pay much because they’re following education.
PLEX allows a much wider range of people to play EVE.
On the other end of the spectrum as well: people with little time to play but enough money to spend on PLEX so they have a few more ships to lose over the weekend, something which benefits the people who like making or shooting ships, or just the people who like having other players in their universe in general.
PLEX increases the potential playerbase. It’s not a bad thing.