CCP has the ultmate fix for that. Just let every cash shop item be resold on the ingame market and voila, everyone is fine with the item being distributed trough the cash shop.
So basically for you, everything below 9/10 is not pay2win? I mean that is your opinion, and it seems to be a whidespread one in this community. I question a bit if this is because most gamers would see it this way or because only the people with a high tolerance for pay2win mechanics are left.
It’s not an excuse, it’s a fact.
PLEX was introduced specifically to combat RMT. That was it’s initial goal and it’s been very successful at that.
Prior to PLEX, there were numerous shady sites that sold ISK for something around US$20/ISK1Billion. So those with the inclination could indeed sink as much RL$$$ as they wanted into the game and buy up every resource they desired. The cash went to said shady sites. The difference is the possibility of getting banhammered for it. CCP was playing a constant game of Whack-A-Mole against those selling and buying ISK on the black market. This game of whack-a-mole took considerable time, effort and resources.
PLEX made almost the entire problem disappear virtually overnight.
It depends on what you think the problem was.
I would say the problem was that people are cheating by buying ISK for RL money, which devalues the game experience in my eyes.
For CCP the problem was that someone else earned money from their game without them getting a cut.
So they effectifely just redirected parts (those gold sellers an botters are still around) of that money stream into their own pockets.
But they did not fix the original problem of gold selling devaluing the game experience. They actively made it worse by legalizing it and making it normal.
A big win for their revenue, a sad reality for the game, as that was the moment it became pay2win.
I think that was always the classical definition of P2W: Does buying something give you an overwhelming advantage? Is that thing ONLY available for cash? If Yes to both = P2W.
When microtransactions started creeping into games the waters got muddy and the definition changed somewhat. most of us old fogies are stuck on the old definition.
In any case, if you want to spend your $$$ on purely cosmetic items, I have no issue with that. If there’s something that can only be had with cash and that maguffin is required to progress or be competative in pvp, then that’s P2W imho.
OK, sure, from a theoretical position of absolute ideological purity, you’re correct.
However, this is actual people we’re talking about. Often it’s actual people with more $$$ than time, so rather than spend the few hours of gametime they have each week grinding up ISK, they’ll swipe their credit cards and be done with it.
They can’t gain some absolute, huge advantage that’s unobtainable without credit card swiping by doing so. And in EVE, that $50 blingy ship they just sold plex to buy can become a wreck on the Jita undock.
Josh says in the video that the eastern culture completely accepts games as a normal isk sink, and that games should provide a wallet strategy.
He also says that “theoretically” in many P2W players could acquire cash items, practically the game is designed to bore them out, so it’s not only about being theoretically, but instead practically, possible.
I think most gamers that are extremely fond of a game will naturally chose a definition that does not include that game. They will even adapt that definition as the game adds more and more monetization. We have seen it, right here in EVE.
You see, just a while ago people said that ANY item that gives advantage that is exclusively available for cash is P2W for them and unacceptable. But then CCP added implants that can not be traded to packages that are only available for RL money that give damage bonuses you don’t get otherwise in the game. So now it’s obviously “overwhelming” advantage that is required to get the P2W mark of shame, because that previous line was crossed and the game doesn’t “feel” P2W to you right?
If they would add absolutely broken bonuses to such offers, there is always the “you can’t win EVE, hence it can’t be P2W” excuse that it will end at. That specific excuse works for absolutely everything they could ever do.
This is why I think the video is so helpful, as it is completely agnostic to the game and analyzes the level by level the increasing influence on the game you can purchase with money. That is why it is a scale and not just a red line at which point you would stop playing and only then call it P2W, because you can’t admit to yourself to ever play a P2W game, as this is a bad look.
{{citation required}}
Vocal people are not a representation of non vocal people.
Some people can be blinded by their habits. Does not mean that most people will.
Maybe if you tried to explain them how winning in a sandbox is what they define, and Eve is a sandbox, then you could have an interesting discussion instead of taking bad arguments as a proof that “most” people have no good argument.
But that would require you to not be a liar.
It’s not, it’s taken from his experience, therefore from the games he played. I agree that formalizing a scale is good though.
Also I completely disagree with his scale, since he put l10 “you can’t buy cash shops unless you pay with money” which makes no sense since the “ability” is relative.
A better definition could be “it takes more time to farm for a cash shop than you get benefit from it”, for items that give an ingame advantage. Or “it takes 10 times more time to farm for it that it lasts” for items that give no ingame advantage but are time-limited. etc.
I remember, that line was unacceptable for me and caused me to take a break from EVE.
By the way, I think those items were withdrawn after the uproar?
Edit - it was indeed withdrawn: Foundation Day Pack Update
They will try again, I’m absolutely sure. And the remaining players that don’t quit over it will pretend it’s not Pay2Win
I’m pretty sure those implants were removed after player outrage. along with cash only boosters. If they’re still available, please tell me where so I can verify it for myself.
And I still fundamentally disagree with his categorization of PLEX style products.
Games publishers are companies. They exist to make a profit, not a loss.
First you falsely accuse people of moving the goalposts in your previous post.
I have clearly stated what I think is P2W and even quit over it, which you know because you posted in my thread about this same topic at that time, and second, the item has been withdrawn so the others who remain are not shifting goal posts of “must be overwhelming advantage instead of little advantage” like you claim either.
Then, when I show that these goal posts have not been shifted, you present a slippery slope fallacy “they will try again, I’m absolutely sure” and claim that people will still shift their goal posts in that hypothetical scenario?
What are you trying to do? Are you trying to insist that people who are not against PLEX are hypocrites?
And that line is still unacceptable to cross. And it will remain that way, to keep a sense of fairness in the game. In EvE that seems to be important for its long term survival. Even a game publisher who wants to make extra profit should have enough insight to not kill his money maker.
As to PLEX, it’s a double thing. On the one hand it’s a means for more cash flow for ccp, on the other it also opens up opportunities for non PLEX-buyers, up to the point of plexing their account and multibox.
The toxic thing we have in EvE, at least in my opinion, is the selling of sp in any shape or form, be it injectors or packs. Those must be the reason why a naive new player starts to regard EvE as a pay to win scheme (much more than their lack of appreciation for an old subscription based system which should guarantee access to everything and level the play field). And that is unfortunate, because there isn’t any real advantage apart from getting a temporary fix for a wrong expectation (from experiences in other games). But at least thank Bob for having diminished returns on sp injections, or this would truly be a pay2win (and an attractant for more RMT’ers). And, again in my opinion, that was the right decision for ccp to make, balancing out the urges of the bookkeepers vs the needs of the game itself.
Yes that’s what P2W is. The current modern versions are generally either “pay for a bit more convenience” (eg. storage space) or “pay to progress faster” (eg. skill injectors). I used the term “pay for advantage” above which apparently Karak thinks is the same as P2W. But it’s not about advantage over other chars, it’s about being in a slightly more advanced position in some way than you were before paying.
The “All P2W is eebil!” types just use P2W as a generic slur because the original version you referred to is widely considered a ‘bad thing’, and they’re trying to tar all convenience purchases with that brush. They also keep trying to do it in the name of “the new players”, but funnily enough it’s always old players you see complaining about this. The idea that anybody else might get things faster or easier than they did just really irks the hell out of some people.
Let’s say there was no paying for anything but subs. Then any new player knows right off the bat that every single other player in EVE is already ahead of him in some very important metrics. And he can never catch up in those terms, never even close the gap, really. Does he feel he’s got a fair deal?
Now you give that player options. He can buy Plex, he can buy skill points, he can play more hours and use AIR and ISK grinding to narrow those gaps. And if he wants the “pure” experience, sure, he can just play the old way and not speed anything up.
Options are better. Some people have more time, some people have more money. Some people can’t accept that the things they “worked” for are now less ‘special’ because times change.
Ha ! But that’s exactly the “reason” behind offering the options of plex, skill injectors, temporary skill packs, and even the very short time omega packs. That all important illusion of ever catching up with someone who has played the game for x number of years, who piled experience and insight on top of the raw parameters. It’s nothing but snake oil. It appeals to believers. It belongs in Jita local.
Inject sp and lose the real training, the real opportunity to get insight, knowledge and experience, the chance to become a better pilot. That’s the reality in this game.
Please go on and make a complete argument.
So far you only affirm things, that don’t make an argument.
So : so, what ?
I’m trying to tell you that everyone not invested in EVE will absolutely categorize this game as blatantly Pay2Win and the reason you don’t see it that way is because you like the game and have an issue with playing a game that is called Pay2Win.
It’s pretty simple.
Also I like to point out how destructive to the game this endless monetization was over the last decade and how the whole player base defending it enables CCP to push ever further without any reason to stop.
I’m pretty clear on all that
It’s sad to see that we are now at a point where everything apart from the absolute worst example is acceptable to this community and even defended. It feels completely surreal to be the only one who has an issue with this.
That’s not a “fallacy” but a prediction I make based on their previous behavior. Adding this shop exclusive boosters was not a “unfortunate mistake”, it was just too early for yet another push in that direction.
I could be wrong on that and hopefully I am. But I don’t think so.
I think the line never crossed so far is the one usually addressed as “gold ammo”, and it’s the only line most current EvE players care IMO. Plus EvE is special in the way, that most other RMT schemes don’t impact the game experience negatively for others as much as maybe in other games. You may say it doesn’t count, but “pay to lose” is not only a meme.
Why would a sane person have something against giving the developing company the funds to survive in a very harsh environment, as long as you enjoy the game?
The world has changed, this is what happened. BTW, a lot of people also enjoy games which cross all lines.
What if I am invested in Eve, and absolutely don’t care if it’s Pay2Win? Prefer it that way actually? Where do I fit in your mental map? I just don’t care at all how you or some dude on a video describes it? Life is pay2win.
Incorrect. You’re trying to create a false binary here, that you can pay for convenience/progress/save time, OR you can learn how to play the game better, but not both. This is simply not the case. There’s nothing magical about plex or skill injectors that removes the ability to learn by experience. And there’s nothing magical about having skill queues that take months and years of sub time to complete that teaches you how to play better.
A player can buy Plex, convert it to ISK, and use that ISK to buy 50 frigates and learn how to PvP. Without needing to waste time on PvE ISK grind. And conversely, another player can pay nothing, grind PvE mining for months for ISK, and learn nothing about the overall game. Or simply buy 3 months of sub, set up his training queue, then log off and go play a more interesting game while he waits for his skill queue to complete. Possibly never to return.
Gaining gameplay experience/skills is a completely separate issue from paying for convenience/progress/time savings.
Selling you illusions is literally the business of online games.