EVE is an easy 7/10 on Josh Strife Hayes' Pay2Win scale

I knew someone would latch on to that post and graph, and try to spin it.

So it’s only if someone is complaining that it is relevant to the discussion, am I getting that message from you ? What if the group that you zoom in on has no idea what the history is nor the foreseeable trend ? The fact is I nor anyone else have to prove anything via registered complaints for an analysis to be factual, no more than the analysis that dumping freons into the atmosphere would have an effect on an ozone layer was less true before it became a genuine concern, or plastics or pfas derivatives, lol. That’s what I believe debaters call a “strawman” argument, right, leading away from the subject ? The subject is “squeezing the lemon” via microtransactions, possibly with in game benefits. That’s the thread’s topic. Right ?

But to humor you, and because I don’t feel like scraping the free sp right now, let’s walk and talk a little about the PLEX graph, which “I didn’t fully understand”. Perhaps you will understand then that you didn’t see the context.

First off, the reasons of a changing value of PLEX are many. The available ISK pool is one thing. The drive by some players to optimize a number (profit) is another. For most non-traders that means they will eventually pay more for just about anything in game, since traders play to maximize their ROIC. The same is true for any item available on the regional markets. Then there is also the control factor by ccp, who ultimately decides how much PLEX is up for sale for real world currency. Deals do show up in the graph, and so do the (very) rare interventions by CCP when they feel PLEX is in a bad place.

Your graph on the ISK in the game is what it is. It’s the usual trend in an open system - there is no limitation to the ISK faucets. ISK is perpetually on offer via the in game resources, is also perpetually harvested, and balancing it out in function of total number of players/accounts/toons to keep prices more or less stable and “fair” is nigh impossible. What you get is inflation over time, that is the normal trend we know from the real world. Add some “shortage and redistribution” shenanigans to the mix and you might even fix it into an increased slope.

But is it also “devaluation” ? We’ll get to that later. What you also get is a population that gets more experienced and which will, inevitably, harvest more ISK/hr. And I’d say the speed at which these can harvest ISK increases the more experienced they become, until they hit the hard limit of their chosen ISK faucet (like carrier ratting). I assume we agree on that, since you say it’s vets in the game who have lots of ISK, and drive the prices because of “needs”.

Neither of those two graphs are “shockers”. They are expected, both the isk pool and the plex trends.

Let’s take two players, at two points in time, and with the same capabilities as players, the same skills, the same number of SP, the same ships, etc. Let’s also assume they are fairly recent in the game, 6 months old and run 1 account.
Let’s put player#1 in 2011, and the other one in 2024.
Let’s tell both of them that “plexing” an account is possible.
Which one would you rather be ? The 2011 or the 2024 ?

Player#1 in 2011 will have to scrape 300-350M together to plex the account.
Player#2 in 2024 will have to get his hands on 2500M to do the same.

The question is simply this: does the 2024 player create 8 times the same income in the same amount of time as it took the 2011 player to get his 350M ? In other words, did the ISK faucets accessible to our fairly recent player become fountains of ISK between 2011 and 2024 ? If they didn’t then time spent in the game has gone through a relative devaluation. If they did, then I’m overlooking something very special and generous, and perhaps you can show me what it is, unveiling hidden faucets for a 6-month old character with the knowledge one can expect from him/her.

That is what I assume is what new players see when they come into the game. Let’s assume the real world cash price for PLEX is similar, taking inflation for '11 to '24 into account. Once the PLEX is being converted inside the game, its buying power (via isk conversion) has decreased, at least when we look at the all important ship hulls to fly around with in a space game. Cash for PLEX deals make it harder to compare value in terms of plexing an account but I would assume that buying one month of omega for cash is still better than buying 500 plex for cash to convert into one month of omega, unless someone up there is desperate to cash in on deferred payments.

I don’t care what account age one has, but ISK and ships are key to playing the game. For newcomers that need is probably more acute. And now come the marketing lads and lasses with the tempting offers.

That’s indeed a nice nominal increase. But did that 1.3 Bn ISK have more, the same, or less buying power than the older amount of 800M ISK ? That would be relevant to the “less often one has to buy PLEX”. All I know is that a simple t1 bs that used to cost me 300M max now easily costs double, unfitted.

What if some players or groups of players buy up all the plex they can, because they are organized to do so, and simply pile up the plex in their freezer for the time being.

Currently, and it has been that way for a while now, there is a higher demand for tradeable plex than there are offers to sell. Is that an artificial (speculative) situation caused by players who either buy up and store plex, or not buy enough plex for cash? :thinking:

Again, if you take this into the subject of the thread, how does that affect newer players and how does that relate to a possible p2w scenario ?

This has not been a thing for a long time now so It can’t be applied

Also I also would not say that multiboxing is paying for power.

L6 : acces to specific mechanisms : you can’t cyno without an alt, but that’s not really it. I can’t find it otherwise.

You can always jump to a friend in a cynoship or a beacon(just more risky) so no alt required,

I also have a problem with the “paying for power” part regarding multiboxing as in almost every team game I could hire the best players in the game to play in a team so they carry me through(me having power by having strong teammates) and the developer can do nothing as there is the possibility they are my friends and the gist is to play with friends.
the same thing is with eve multiboxing is just getting a bunch of extra friends that happen to be yourself.

You are totally entitled to have an opinion that is completely wrong

And then you compare it to literally cheating, like which side are even on? You just completely obliterated your own argument

No, we know you don’t have any friends

You spend more money, you get more power, exactly

I would not dispute that some ships are absurdly expensive. How does a Guardian, which is really just a glorified Augoror with repping capability, get to cost 5 times an Augoror ? There’s little actual logic in price differentials sometimes…with the craziest thing being some level 3 implants costing less than level 2 ones !

Well, you tried to spin it when you posted it, so somebody needed to spin it back.

If you’re arguing on behalf of a population of new players who are being harmed by this type of P2W, you should at least be able to confirm that this population exists outside your imagination.

Actually no, the topic is “EVE can now be objectively classed as highly P2W, and this P2W is bad for the game”. Which both you and Tarak are trying to support by ideological arguments and appeals to emotion. There’s virtually no factual support for either of your arguments.

Sorry but no. I apparently have a much better memory for prices, trends, and how the player incomes have changed over the years. And then I follow that up and do my homework to find the actual numbers, something that might benefit you as well.

Well first off your argument starts out that the Plex economy is bad for the game, but now you’ve segued into “how hard is it for new players to Plex their account?” which appears to indicate Plex is a valuable option for new players.

But in answer to “does a new player create more income?”, yes, as a matter of fact they do. I can’t update you on 2 decades of EVE history if you don’t recall it yourself - you’ll have to do your own homework. But here’s a few examples. In 2011, players were talking about making 20-30 million ISK/hr with a good setup, although some said up to 100-150 mill per hour.
https://www.reddit.com/r/evedreddit/comments/gcqob/how_much_iskhour_do_you_earn/

In 2023, those numbers had gone to 100-200M isk/hr with highs over a billion.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/zz9673/respectable_iskhr_for_an_average_char_going_into/

For new players willing to learn, the jump is even more dramatic (50M ISK/hr new player guide):

But at any rate, all that meandering discussion about new players is fog and misdirection. As is talk about Plex buying power being decreased. Plex is selling for 8 times what it used to, but there are very few things in the game which are costing 8 times what they used to. Go check the prices on cruisers, modules, weapons etc. Most items have increased by a factor between 2 to 4, with a very few reaching 6 or 8 (mostly due to CCP deliberately sabotaging the economy on some items). So Plex purchasing power is on par or somewhat ahead.

The Plex market isn’t driven by new players however, and all the theoreticals in the world won’t make it so… unless you can point to some proof that new players are being driven to purchase large amounts of Plex and then somehow losing value from it.

Plex price is up, but plex traded is down. There’s less Plex being put on the market, and many billions more ISK bidding for them. That’s bad for vets in the game (you know, the ones with the billions of ISK) but good for the few new players out there (if any) using Plex to save some time in the game.

Yes, some people feel strongly about the perils of P2W. But feelings aren’t facts. EVE has been P2W for decades, it hasn’t held it back anywhere near as much as other problems. CCP needs the income from Plex and other options, they’re barely breaking even or even losing money lately.

Blue-sky dreams about a world where cosmetics purchases fund the shortfall won’t cut it.

I said it was okay since day 1. Well, I wasn’t here day one but from when I played there was a cash shop selling TimeCodes. There was also a cash shop selling EVE Magazine, 3D painted models of ships, T-shirts, EVE Online soundtrack CD-ROM,… all these are no longer sold due to 3rd parties being way cheaper. So there is literally LESS TO BUY NOW than there was in 2008 when I bought

I know from others that actually buy stuff.

Because as far as I know that’s the bug place to be to buy ingame items.

PLEX has the value of gametime which dictates it’s major value. Yes, cash shop (ingame or the website) too can change it’s value slightly by discounts. But it’s mostly the players who dictate the price.

e-drugs are just like the regular street drugs. It gives people instant gratification. You confused it with the ingame drugs which I don’t think are of much value and just in case, it’s given for free each day (with skins and “bottled skillpoints”) you can achieve starting the EVE Online client for free.

The player can scrape it together while being alpha thus your point is moot. Does he mine ore in a Venture or does he play the Jita Market? All these players should be rewarded the same in your example. That’s ridicoulous. I din’t read on as you can imagine anything you want but your theory does not apply to EVE Online.

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Did anybody notice the title and the H1 when first visiting EVEonline main domain?

Title reads “EVE Online The #1 Free Space MMORPG

Then the main header on the page reads “The #1 Space MMO

Now we all know about the option to play for free!

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Nope. I didn’t say that anywhere.

That’s not the question as I asked it, is it. I set up a preamble with two completely similar players/accounts with an experience limited to 6 months (because that ties in with the “harping” about new players, you see), one in '11, one in '24, then I asked which one you would rather be, taking into account the game as it was then and as it was now.

Then you come back with a link where the first poster says he makes (in 2011) around 20-30 M/hr in null, running sanctums (the top tier combat anoms in any nullsec system). Okay… That’s hardly the picture of the recent player I put on the stage, is it ? Read it again, it’s a situation that is relevant to - yes yes harping - newer players. I don’t care about veterans’ situations re transactions, they are supposed to know by now what they should do with their time, and their credit cards. They can make informed choices. A newer player is far less aware.

The famous isk/hr argument. Which hour was that, exactly ? Was that a full hour ? And how many hours or prep work ? Is that for a specific fit, and a specific skill set geared towards maximizing the isk/hr for that particular faucet ? If you look around a bit on YT, I’m sure you’ll find bold streamers claiming you can make even more and show you how easy it is. Hell, I can take you to w-space or lowsec and let you make hundreds of millions per hour on an alpha (but only if I’m around). What is true now for min/maxing applies equally to the situation in '11. You “could” if you had the knowledge and the access to a limited situation.

That’s not the situation newer players are in, usually.

In a reply to Altara I did mention the odd t1 bs now costing at least double. So ? PLEX still costs 8 times as much ISK as in '11, for the value of 30 days omega. Whether you like it or not, that cost has increased 8 fold, while the income - bar some highly specialized and skill requiring sources of income that may have been introduced since then - has not for the average new visitor. See above.

Did you read somewhere that it is ? Or did you think you read it ?

Congratulations, you again taught them the lesson it’s good to spend extra on the game and take the shortcut for impatience and not learning. We’ll stay diametrically opposed on that one.

smh

Shortfall ? What shortfall ?
Btw, you may have accepted microtransactions as a fact of life. I have not. I prefer the Geckos in my drone bay instead of on the (gaming) market, or at least want them thoroughly house trained…

Our walk and talk has reached its destination. Thank you.

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ccp would be in dire straits if that was so feasible, wouldn’t they.

thanks for sharing that. Insightful.

I wonder.

Thanks to people reading this as “scrape it together in one month or less” they are not. Or maybe you don’t have patience, goals, plans,… I don’t know how you perceive it not possible for people to succeed in EVE Online. I understand you are angry at the evil game that’s so unfair as it gives everyone equal opportunity. Not equal outcome, that’s surprisingly based on real life skills. If only you knew the effort people do to get their ingame goals accomplished… but I guess from your perspective the CCP CEO has to come hand you over free stuff so you can handle a computer game.

If you would spend equal or more time ingame than on the forums…

#JustSaying

But EVE Online is an experience where people voluntarily join in and create their own microcosms in space… you are free to do what you want but if you want to dis things out, don’t be sad to receive things in return.

To be honest I don’t ( and I suspect most players don’t either ) sit there fretting over the PLEX to ISK rate or the money supply or indeed anything that involves some fancy graph someone can spin this way or that. I seldom even look at the monthly economic stats. My only consideration is…‘can I afford to play this game?’ . It’s a lot simpler ‘yes’ or ‘no’ equation, and right now the answer is ‘yes’.

I suspect most players make the exact same decision without ever once looking at any graph or stats. All these highbrow arguments are thus somewhat irrelevant. People either can afford to play Eve according to their chosen style…or they can’t.

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Wasn’t there someone on the forums a few years back who just discovered the stock market and was excited to show off how they were gonna dump $40,000 into ISK because of their awesome trades or something. Haven’t heard from them but hope they were successful and are doing well.

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You make a lot of assumptions about things you haven’t read, lol. Maybe you should spend just enough time on the forum to at least get some understanding of those involved and what they wrote, and not get drawn to a response to a strawman argument (which wasn’t mine, btw).

The game and me are fine, thanks. Have loved it since 2011. Since last year gotten into building cap ships from resources I harvest (hah, redistribution !), and enjoying the heaviest TiDi the shard can throw at us in the biggest fleets we can assemble as a simple F1 monkey. And all that on a single account, not counting the obligatory alpha for the alliance. I like to think I handle the game quite well. I’ll even admit I bought a few skins for the hulls that matter to me, via plex I bought with ISK I made in game. You were saying …?

But on the subject of microtransactions, and how the community keeps / should keep a close eye on the line that should not be crossed, we could be at a disagreement even though we obviously share a passion for EvE. Perhaps you will like EvE:Awakening and its blockchain background - I promise you I will not. And our CCP CEO specifically stated NFT = Not For Tranquility. All is well, at least on that front. Cheers !

That’s exactly right. And affordability is directly related to the subject, the (alleged or real) p2w aspects of certain parts of the monetization scheme besides subscriptions. In the end, as long as people can afford their omega, that is what matters first. That PLEX and skill injector value reflects and influences what happens on the regional markets, and how it may affect different groups of players is something one may chose to ignore, downplay or discuss, according to one’s interest or investment. That is really all there is to it at this point. It’s not a life or death matter.

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My apologies, I post very badly.

Mostly nasty stuff, not going to check, I rather not reread my awful posts.

No, I have made a few posts against the NFT/crypto/… implementation. I stay over here. :wink:

We agree on this.

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I found myself watching the vid and thinking that CCP have actually done quite a good job (having made some significant and disastrous mistakes in the past) in finding a relative balance between game play influence and micro transactions/P2W. I also wouldn’t put that at 7/10 as the chap clearly says its not a direct scale, some games have some, none or all.

For me I always use the following example. You need some new socks, you pop into town and go to a shop that sells socks, you come out of the shop with some socks but also a tennis racket, some tennis balls and a hockey stick. Is that the shops fault? No, your an idiot.

Lets not forget we live on a planet in a reality where everyday we face the option that idiocy will end in financial loss and/or death.

It’s actually exactly what the shops wants to do.
They even pay people to change the design to make you purchase useless things.
What you want, you want it, for a reason.
Your free will is an illusion. You behave in the cultural frame and reactions that were educated into you.

Well I just buy the socks who cares what the shop wants.

You can take a horse to water…

Sometimes, you can make it drink.
Especially when it’s actually your job, to make donkeys drink your water.