This a fun debate. Of course the real issue isn’t PvP vs PvE - the balance is between creation and destruction. Before the Triglavians, there hadn’t been any NPCs that could provide any real destructive balance.
After blackout it was probably obvious to CCP that they could never expect PvP destruction to match all the mining and industry that the PvE players are constantly churning out.
The fact you are now resorting to this shows you lost a long time ago and now are just tilting.
yeah but I’m still pissed about it
im doing my best to destruct 
Allowing the ability to opt out of PvP would mean a major departure from the market that has sustained EVE for almost 20 years. Player losses in that scenario would be massive.
Adapt or leave : )
So says the person refusing to adapt to EVE as it is and demanding a feature that goes directly against every precedent CCP has ever set.
Well, friend, first off that’s yet another assertion, no more credible than any other assertion. And nobody has to be able to opt out of pvp but we could make non consensual pvp more difficult in a variety of ways that would make your gameplay harder without allowing people to opt out. Your claim of massive losses is like every other similar claim…forward looking assertion. The only thing known to cause massive losses was blackout.
Please quote me demanding that people be allowed to opt out of PVP…Don’t worry I won’t be surprised if you don’t come up with anything.
But your fear is definitely showing here. You are terrified that your precious PVP playstyle will be harmed by CCP. It’s fun. I’m happy to keep going as long as you want to dig…but I’d offer to you that putting down the shovel might be the best plan right now.
This is quite right. And what CCP doesn’t understand is that raising the cost of everything isn’t going to increase destruction…
…but I imagine they will find out soon enough when destruction inflates less rapidly than the total market. They will claim destruction is going up (as measured in isk) but that will only be because of inflation…in real terms destruction will almost certainly decline.
Fewer stations equal fewer war decs. More costly ships equal fewer people willing to risk them. Mineral scarcity does the same.
What I’m looking forward to is how CCP declares victory six or eight months from now.
WATER IS WET IS JUST AN ASSERTION LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
If you want to ignore reality and whine about “assertions” that’s your problem. But the obvious reality is that CCP is targeting a particular market, one that has little tolerance for ideas like yours.
And nobody has to be able to opt out of pvp but we could make non consensual pvp more difficult in a variety of ways that would make your gameplay harder without allowing people to opt out.
Ways like what? Giving PvE players even more tools for avoiding PvP when they already have so many they refuse to use?
Please quote me demanding that people be allowed to opt out of PVP…
You haven’t said so explicitly, but you’re perfectly happy to defend the people making that demand. And regardless of what your exact desired changes are it’s pretty hilarious to see you whining about “ADAPT OR DIE LOLOLOLOLOLOL” when you’re the one who wants to change the game and I’m perfectly happy dealing with things as they are now.
Ever heard about gatecamps?
If you are properly flying through space, you use Dscan and depending on what you are flying, you use scouts.
This is PvP. Constantly. The assumption that it isn’t until someone is firing at you is purely and simply wrong. That’s factual.
There can be someone following you to kill you a few systems further away. There can be someone spying on you so their friends get ready to gank you three jumps later.
Actually the vast majority of the PvP starts with intel gathering. It just… doesn’t make sense to pretend that the people watching you are not engaging in PvP until they actually fire the shot.
That’s even the opposite. Firing is the final execution. It’s the easier step in many cases. PvP is everything that you do before. It is everything that the hunter is doing to catch the target, and it is everything that the pray is doing to eventually get out without being shot at.
No. That’s the whole problem. As I explained before, the PvP is everything that happens before the shooting. It’s all the setting-up of the shooting. The shooting is nothing but the cherry on the cake.
Once the ship fire, the PvP is over most of the time. You are already dead. Because you failed the actual PvP part, not getting caught.
That’s absolutely ridiculous. This ship can be everything, from someone spying on you to someone getting ready as a warp-in for all his friends to come and gank you.
And even if he isn’t specifically targeting you, he might be waiting to tackle someone else. He might serve as eyes for a bigger fleet somewhere else. He might be a crucial part in someone’s PvP operation without firing a shot in the entire process.
So why are you trying to reduce your understanding of the game by limiting PvP to the shooting, and ignoring everything that happens before and makes the shooting possible?
Your whole reasonning goes against the idea of “expanding your understanding”. On the contrary, you try to limit activities to a very simple and incomplete definition. That’s not “understanding”, that’s vulgarization at best. And the whole idea of vulgarization is to make it simple at the risk of being inaccurate. Which you are.
Like, honnestly.
If you push anybody to really believe that “the ships around them are not doing PvP until they fire a shot”, then you push them in a direction that will lead them to fall in many traps. Simply because they forgot to keep an eye on all the ships and players that were actively PvPing against them without using their weapons.
I know it sounds like a bit of an Ad Hominem, but I don’t know how to formulate it in a more… Diplomatic way.
To me, you are someone who try to “educate” people on what is PvP, but actually have an extremely limited understanding of PvP, and most likely didn’t practice it a lot. In EvE, at least.
Your analysis is lacking precision because you just don’t have the knowledge to make a proper one. You are not conscious yet of everything a PvP player must do besides firing his weapons in order to kill an other player.
And I’m not going into things like “Yeah, mining is actually PvP, blablabla”.
Nah, I’m just talking about pure PvP situations, with someone wanting to kill other ships as their main goal.
This someone will do a lot of things before pressing his weapon keybind. Pretending that he isn’t doing PvP until he is in front of his target and firing the shot is a non-sense.
This is called combat. I my actions make you lose isks on the market what do you call that? PVE? If i scam you, PVE too? Things are either PVE or PVP, there’s nothing else.
What is it called when everybody is docked up, chatting on Discord? Because that is how a lot of people play Eve.
I was going to reply to some of the posts here, but I realised I’m completely bored of the discussions on what is PvP.
It’s one of those topics that’s been going on for years and will never be resolved. The best you can hope for is to agree to disagree.
Discussion is PvP.
Actually, I think the reason there’s never any agreement on what is PvP is because originally it was just used to tell you what the style/type of game it was. It wasn’t originally meant for a game to be broken down into individual components.
This is also where combat comes into it.
EVE is a PvP game because it has world PvP (combat).
WoW PvP servers are PvP because they also have world PvP (combat).
WoW PvE servers are not PvP because they don’t have world PvP (combat) even though they do have isolated PvP (combat).
So as long as people keep breaking games down into individual components there will never be any agreement.
Edit:
It just struck me that I don’t think the WoW servers are like that anymore, but they were.
So the real question is:
Is PVP limited to combat or not?
It doesn’t really matter if it has world PvP (combat) it’s a PvP game.
Real life economy is the most brutal PVP I ever played. In comparison to that, Eve is a mere video game.
Ive yet to see a citation of what these changes should be.
Other than fatter cloaky transports.
Which really arent needed if you know how to use a DST properly.
Also, by the definitions of the OP, Hearts of Iron in multiplayer mode isnt a PvP game :S
EVE is an Economy Game
And Economics IS PVP…
–Gadget Knows
Nonsense - if my entering the system you are mining in causes you to go and dock-up, that’s PvP.
feelings is pvp