I am disheartened to see someone in such a lofty position make statements that are so wrong. Of course God forgives. In our fallen state, out of unity with God, we live in a world of sin. Everyone sins. The very symbol of our Empire proclaims this. If God did not forgive, we should give up now, because we will never meet His standard.
Additionally as Saint Jamyl said when she still walked among us:
“Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation.” -Empress Jamyl I
If God has granted the authority to forgive and provide Salvation to the Empress, then God does forgive. It matters not if that forgiveness is through a vicar, it is still God’s authority being exercised.
Salvation is not a temporal stay of punishment, but divine grace. Saint Jamyl’s words are very clear.
Empress Jamyl I, peace be upon her, was displaying that limitless mercy mentioned in the Code of Demeanor.
We are all indeed flawed sinners, but that is exactly why we need God to attain Salvation. He grants us mercy and cleanses our soul not because He forgives us, but because He loves us and wants those of us who truly accept His Love. There can be mercy and Salvation without forgiveness.
Aside from the fact that the Prophet Kuria specifically say that one can repent and pray for forgiveness, this sort of contortion where God cleanses us of our sins without forgiveness seems to be a great contortion to get to a point where forgiveness isn’t necessary.
However, that cleansing, the act in itself is forgiveness. Mercy and cleansing of one’s soul is divine forgiveness.
Another point I wish to make is that one can forgive, but still insist on a punishment. To forgive is not to forget. To forgive is not to excuse. To forgive is not to pardon. They are separate acts.
Correct, beliefs and deeds are needed. However, I wanted to hew close to the topic of forgiveness specifically.
Asking for forgiveness without making any attempt to show one’s worthiness is doomed to failure. God’s tolerance is limited. It is because of that, we Amarr strive to serve Him in a way that pleases Him. Analogies are crude, but I will use one here:
Salvation could be compared to a path up a mountain, a path that is impossible for us to make on our own. However, we must continue to walk that path, to keep trying to make it up the mountain. Sin could be likened to stumbling, or slowing. As long as we pick ourselves up to continue to walk up the path, our sins can be forgiven and cleansed. To stop walking, or to turn away from the path is the apostasy that the Scriptures speak of as being the gravest sin. To not be on that path would be outside of God’s tolerance.
One can repent and ask for forgiveness, but as said in the direct next line, that’s not true meekness.
Cleansing our souls isn’t forgiving us.
I, like everyone else, have sinned. I am a sinner. But as I believe in God and accept His Love, He will, though His Mercy, allow me Salvation.
That doesn’t mean I’ll be suddenly not a sinner. Though this life and the next, I’ll have to accept my imperfection. God does not tolerate sin. He will not forgive me for sinning. He’ll just exercise His Love to Save me from my own failures despite the fact that I’m entirely undeserving.
Then I ask a simple question of you:
What is forgiveness?
How is this act not forgiveness?
I would call forgiveness the refusal to take revenge for insults. Every sin, great or small is an insult against God. As we’ve already established, His Wrath is Immense. As you have stated, accurately, everyone has sinned. We are all sinners. Has God taken revenge against you for your insults against Him? Will He? Since you clearly believe in His Mercy and Salvation, then I suspect you believe you will not be subjected to His Immense Wrath.
If you think forgiveness is something else, Ms. Arsia Elkin, then I would encourage you to explain just what it is.
Let’s assume for a moment that somebody whom I loved wronged me.
Now let’s also assume that I was throwing a party (and I’m not comparing the afterlife to a party). I can let them attend because of that love that I still fell despite having been wronged and still be angry at them. I can let them into the party without forgiving them. I can give them dinner without forgiving them. God can give us Salvation without forgiving us.
You believe forgiveness to about anger or some other resentment. I see your confusion. I would not use forgiveness in that way when speaking about God and Sin. I know the Order of Jamyl does not use forgiveness in that way.
Forgiveness is God withholding His Wrath when He has every justification not to. That wrath would be damnation for our sins against Him.
It is worth noting that the responses in the exchange here seem to be conflating all human imperfections and failings into the same category as rejecting God.
Human Folly can be cleansed, but God-Rejecting Blasphemy, Heresy, or Apostasy are entirely different.
So, given the length of time the Ealur have been enslaved compared to Ni-Kunni, some Minmatar, or not at all in the case of Khanid or Ammatar should manumission from slavery be considered not as an act of forgiveness but rather as the consideration of a slave to uphold the divine order of the Empire willingly and ably?
Samira is correct here. Most slaves already do that.
I do not see manumission as an act of forgiveness, but as one of recognition and promotion of capability of someone who has already been living faithfully.
Then I think Amarr slavery as an institution designed to inculcate certain beliefs and values in service to God and Empire is more honest and less cruel than offering a path to personal salvation a slave may never realise in their lifetime.
Which I suppose is the core of the salvific heteredoxy – is it even in the temporal domain such as with Holders to offer the indulgence of salvation to slaves or is that God’s sole remit?