[Excubitoris Chapter] God Does Not Forgive: A Rejection of the Recent Concept of Forgivable Generational Inherited Sin

God Does Not Forgive: A Rejection of the Recent Concept of Forgivable Generational Inherited Sin
By Chapter Master Gaven Lok’ri, Co-Chapter Master of the Excubitoris Chapter of the Order of the Sacred Throne.

In recent years many Amarr have developed a concept of slavery that portrays it as a contractual relationship in which sufficient punishment and toil makes up for the sins of the slave and their ancestors. In this view, the damned (or at least their descendants) can work their way back into the good graces of God. According to these new beliefs, sin is hereditary and the descendants of a sinner need to pay off that original sin of their forebears. While I have long considered this mindset a somewhat odd way of interpreting Amarr teachings, recent events have made it clear that the concept of slavery being a method for paying off generational sin is dangerous as well as misguided.

I. In the Beginning:

To understand any view of Amarr Slavery, one must start at the beginning, when all of creation was right with God. Any justification of slavery as it exists today is predicated on the truth that we currently inhabit a fallen world, one in which most of humanity actively flouts the divine will. We do not know what exactly caused humanity to break with God, but what is clear is that the world we exist in now is not the perfect place that existed before humanity broke with the divine.

We believe that the Amarr were chosen to be the heralds of a return to divine order. When the ancestors of everyone else broke with God, the followers of Gheinok did not. The light of God’s Truth in this world effectively shrunk to a tiny glimmer in the darkness, only surviving on the island that is now Dam-Torsad. With the foundation of the Empire as we know it, that light grew steadily until it reached the hundreds of systems in the Amarr Empire. This expansion brought the Chosen into contact with those whose ancestors had lost their way, creating a great dilemma for the successors of Amash-Akura.

We knew, of course, that the Amarr were chosen. But what does our having been chosen mean for those who lived outside of our pocket of rightly guided salvation? The recent view, and the one that has risen in popularity during the capsuleer era, is that the moment everyone else broke with the divine was a moment of original sin that damned their descendents. All but Amarr broke with God, and therefore all but Amarr are sinners who deserve punishment for the sins of their ancestors. The descendants of those who abandoned God need to somehow make up for their ancestor’s mistake, and as a result their long-term enslavement is justified as a way of slowly purifying their bloodline. God in this view is harsh in enforcing justice, but ultimately is forgiving.

The older view, however, is that all save Amarr were simply pushed outside of the light and guidance of God. Many, even most, of the people living in the Long Dark are indeed sinners, but they are not inheritors of some original sin. Rather they sin because they live in a world where sinning is normal. They are taught with their mother’s milk to do evil. Slavery exists as a matter of controlling those who have been corrupted by being surrounded by evil. Someone born into slavery is not guilty of the sins of their ancestors, but do have to account for their own crimes against God. When such groups of people in the dark were shown the signs of the faith, they gain a chance to either embrace the faith or to deny it. Most deny it, having been raised to be evil, but a few paragons have historically immediately understood the truth and have accepted their place in the divine Order. By this view of sin, there are lights in the darkness that can be redeemed and add the strength of their culture to Amarr while those that refuse are rightfully punished as criminals and enslaved. By this view of sin, there is no requirement that God forgives crimes.

In either case a version of Slavery is justified by the theology, but how the institution is supposed to function is very different if slavery is supposed to be salvific in its own right and is a justified punishment for ancestral sin rather than it existing as a way of controlling those who cannot otherwise function in the divine order.

II. God Does Not Forgive:

Examined uncritically, salvific slavery seems kinder. It offers a vision of a world with a forgiving God who can be appeased. It also provides a vision of the world in which the suffering of slavery is worthwhile in its own right. It creates a world in which no one is truly beyond redemption. But such a view is based on lies. It is a deception and denies the fundamental truth that God does not forgive.

If an individual is culpable for the sins of their ancestors, then no amount of punishment will ever suffice. This is a constant message of many of the most well-known revelations about God. A prime example of this message is found in the Code of Demeanor, in which “The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.” This is borne out throughout the divine revelations, in which God responds to seeing blasphemers and sinners by “drowning them in own blood,” among other judgements. Those who are shown the signs of faith and refuse to believe will receive “neither compassion nor mercy; Nor peace, nor solace.” Similarly, “those who turn away from his light, and reject his true word, shall be struck down by his wrath. For we are His retribution incarnate, His Angels of Vengeance.” As the scriptures also say, “The gates of paradise will open for you one time only; woe to the soul who dares to knock twice."

God does not forgive. Those who have committed offenses against God are damned, pure and simply. There is no salvation. There is no working it off. And therefore, any belief that someone inherits the Sins of their Ancestors must be wrong. In a world in which inherited sin is something that actually exists, everyone is damned except a tiny number of absolutely perfectly pedigreed True Amarr. The sin can never go away. But we know this is not true, and to say it is is to actively deny the sanctity of Tal-Romon, as well as any other sanctified people who also have ancestors who resisted the Reclaiming. To say this is clear heresy.

A better view of the matter is that the children of damned sinners do not in fact inherit sin, but rather inherit the worldly debt created by the damage that their ancestor’s sin created. In effect there is a distinction between a slave who is a criminal and is damned and a slave who owes a debt but is considered a faithful member of Amarr society. First generations of slaves come from those who failed God, while later generations become an entirely different type of slave than their criminal ancestors, at least until they also commit a crime themselves. The way Amarr handles this first generation of criminals is not tied up in questions of divine forgiveness, however, but rather falls under the Emperor’s Mercy.

While the Code of Demeanor and other scriptures are clear in their imagery of the implacable wrath of God towards those who sin, they are also quite clear that the Emperor is allowed to grant temporal mercy to those who have failed God. As the other half of the Code of Demeanor says, “The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. His Rule is Benign and Righteous. His Love is Perpetual."

One aspect of this mercy is the Reclaiming, the imperial order to bring the faith to those who are still living in their long night. As the Book of Reclaiming declares, "So the Lord sent forth the Chosen, to bring forth the light of faith And those who embrace his love Shall be saved by his grace For we are his shepherds in the darkness, His Angels of Mercy.” The chosen go forth, and they find those who, despite having lived their entire lives in unguided darkness, embrace the light of faith. The names of these cultures are well known. First, the Khanid, then the Ni’Kunni, and finally the Ammatar. The best people of each of these groups when brought into the light found that their souls were pure. They embraced the divine light and as a result their cultures survive to this day as unique cultures within the Amarr Empire. In their case, the Mercy of Amarr was saving them from a world that could have compelled them to become sinners.

But another aspect of that mercy is the decision of what to do to those who resist the Reclaiming. And this is the mercy that is Amarr Criminal Slavery. The people who Amarr had judged as criminals worthy of destruction could have been wiped out, but instead Amarr chose to enslave that generation to give their descendants a chance to make a different decision. Unlike the Khanid, the cultures that outright rejected the faith cannot be allowed to survive intact. They are clearly cultures built on sin as a foundational principle, they are cultures that see the light as evil and actively choose to hide in the dark. And they raise new generations, one after another, to believe that the good is evil and that the evil is good. Enslaving a generation of criminals against God who denied the faith and wiping out their culture allowed a future in which the descendents of Udorians or Minmatar can become proud members of the righteous community of the Amarr. They are no longer the Udorians or Minmatar of their ancestral traditions, but rather they are Amarr in every way.

If we apply a generational sin concept to this, however, it breaks down. The accumulated sin of generations of living in the dark, even for the better cultures, must have been immense. If Slavery exists to purge generational sin, then it is quite simply unfair that the Ealur are still mostly in slavery while the Khanid never were. It is unfair that the Ammatar did not have to serve as slaves for generations, while many of the Matari are still enslaved. And as God is certainly fair, the problem must be our Amarr culture. From this feeling of unfairness comes revolution.

But, since the entire idea of generational sin is nonsense this unfairness is not relevant. The reason so many are still enslaved as criminals is either that they have, generation after generation, failed to become Amarr, or that their Holders have committed a grave abuse against them and against God. The continued enslavement of these groups is also far from universally true, for the best members of each enslaved culture long ago accepted the truth and became Amarr with Heathen ancestry. The child of a criminal slave is born a debt slave, and then that debt slave or their descendants can rise through the ranks potentially attaining great heights, or they can fall back into sin and find themselves a criminal slave like their ancestor. In properly managed Holdings, only the individuals who have sinned in their own right during their lifetimes are criminal class slaves.

III: Inventing Forgivable Generational Sin:

The specific idea that sin transfers from generation to generation and that it creates a burden that can somehow be worked off is a relatively recent phenomenon that has increased in popularity during the last several centuries. The idea of salvation through toil is a powerful one and there are several reasons that it has gained popularity.

It is my belief that the original reason that this idea rose in prominence is that it gave greedy, self-centered, Sani inspired Holders an excuse to not manumit the debt slaves that were under their authority. The population of the lowest castes of slaves, by divine design, should be shrinking unless something is gravely wrong with the guidance granted by the Holder. Each generation should be seeing its best and brightest granted promotions from the lowest castes as they work off their ancestral debt and enhance the glory of Amarr. On a well managed Holding, the only remaining slaves should be those who are actively criminals and those who have outstanding debt to work off. Without new conquests, on a well managed holding, freedpeople and their descendants should far outnumber criminals and debt slaves. This is clearly not the case in large swathes of Amarr territory, and the generational sin concept is one of the tools that Holders who are tainted by Saniesque individualism use to justify treating Amarr faithful as if they are heretical criminals. They lie about God as they justify continuing to punish those who have earned no punishment in their lives.

Once the lie of a forgiving God was established as a cynical play to not have to do their job as Holders, it was then popularized by those who naively bought into the lie. Those ministering to criminal slaves bought into this salvific slavery centered theology because on its surface it offers hope to sinners. People who lack the courage to actually tell the truth how it really is, who are too kind, want to give people who are beyond salvation hope, and as a result they also lie about God and create a merciful God who does not exist. In doing so they unwittingly served the agenda of the cynical individualists who created the idea of salvific slavery in the first place.

Now one important point of clarification is that the idea of what constitutes slavery is a far more nuanced one in Amarr than it is in the rhetoric of many of those who will read this. I believe that many foreigners probably think of slaves as anyone who is not paid for their work and who is not allowed freedom of movement or choice of employment. The problem with this description is that it describes many different social classes within Amarr. When Gallente wish to vilify our social structure, they take images of the most punitive classes of slaves while acting as if those describe the whole. They do not. There are many classes of slaves within Amarr, and most of them should be living in good material conditions unless a holding is extremely poorly managed.

One of the single most important distinctions in types of slaves is the difference between Enslaved Criminal Heretics and Enslaved Debtors. A heretical criminal slave has no rights at all, their very continued existence is a massive act of mercy. Nothing can save them, for they have sinned against God. Debt slaves are very different. They have some basic protections and rights in any well-run holding and they are not inherently sinners. Many of these slaves are the descendants of criminals, but rather than working off their ancestors’ sin they are working off the temporal debt incurred. The sin was their ancestor’s alone, it died with them, but the social debt that was incurred alongside that sin is inheritable and needs to be worked off for a family to work their way up the social structure of Amarr.

Amarr is a society of divinely inspired order, so while most of the people in it are not placed in a position where they have a choice in what they do or where they go, they are still members of the Amarr Faith in Good Standing. Criminal Slaves are different, someone who dies as a criminal slave is someone who is utterly damned to eternal judgement and punishment. In places where the system is not being corrupted, the criminal slaves are those who are beyond salvation, who saw the message of God and actively rejected it.

It is obvious why a Holder corrupted by greed might lie to their subjects and try to convince them that they are in fact criminal slaves rather than debt slaves. Criminal slaves will never work off their debt, they are eternally damned, and God does not forgive. So, if a Holder can convince their slaves that they are criminal, they can create an environment in which they are never obligated to manumit their slaves. Such a Holder lies about God and tells subjects who are in fact Good and Faithful Amarr that they actually deserve damnation. Such a Holder should join the likes of the Holder who lied to evade Jamyl’s emancipation decree in becoming a criminal slave themselves.

IV: On Offering Undeserved Temporal Mercy to Sinners:

We have recently seen the consequences for these wrong ideas about salvation with the development of the Kernherite heresy. A core element of this broken faith is a belief that Amarr is obligated to treat different sinners fairly and equally. If generational sin must be worked off through long service, this suggests that the level of punishment that apostasy justifies is truly immense. If this is the case, it is an utter betrayal of the Amarr system for an Apostate to be brought back into the system without being punished with the generations upon generations of slavery that their actions rightfully earned.

But that worldview is based on a lie about God. It is based on the idea that God forgives anyone for anything. It’s based on the idea that forgiveness can be earned. And that view is wrong.

Rather, the pardoning of an apostate is both temporal and falls under the category of Imperial Mercy. Anyone who commits a true sin dies damned, nothing will ever erase their vast sin against God. But this is a divine matter, when it comes to temporal matters the Emperor has vastly more leeway. The sin against God justifies temporal punishment, but it does not require it. The Emperor has infinite powers of mercy, and she can exercise that power as a God given right. She cannot offer divine forgiveness, no one can do that, but she can choose not to punish temporally. There are many reasons to do this, but one of the biggest would be if allowing a sinner to escape punishment in the short term (in the long term they will always still receive divine punishment) would save the eternal souls of many others who might also have become damned. This is not a betrayal of those who have worked off temporal debt, their accomplishment in doing so is undiminished, but rather it is an act of mercy designed to prevent a great evil.

This fragility of faith that Kernherites demonstrate is what has brought me to write such an essay on this matter. Before their rebellion I saw the ideas of generational sin and transactional salvific slavery as being odd, but mostly benign, heterodoxies. After seeing the fall of Kernher, I now see them as fundamentally dangerous beliefs that run counter to the continuation of the divine order of Amarr.

A belief in generational sin that is based on the lie that God forgives undercuts divine order in two primary ways. First, it creates vast despair. It tells good and faithful lower-class Amarr that they are inherently sinners, even though they are of a higher class of slavery than the criminal classes who are damned. Rather than being taught to be proud of their service to the divine order, they were taught to view themselves as evil and their service as forced. Propagating such hopelessness is a grave crime that directly challenges the divine order of things. Second, it increases the stakes for the level of punishment that any sin requires. It creates false standards for what level of punishment is just, standards that are not usable in our broken world, and standards that when they are not lived up to cause people to lose faith.

These failings are not the fault of lower class Amarr raised by these lies alone. They are first and foremost the fault of those who teach lies about God. These false teachings about a God that forgives need to end, and those responsible for continuing to propagate them need to be reigned in before they manage to do any more damage to Holy Amarr.

11 Likes

Can you please expand on this? It doesn’t seem a particularly ‘new’ or ‘recent’ development, from the outside. What makes you say that it is?

Recent here is measured in decades and centuries, not years.

I am going to be commissioning research projects to find out the precise origins of the idea, but so far I have not found evidence of either a forgiving God or of generational sin that can be somehow worked off that is not from the last few centuries.

Capsuleers in particular have always had a predilection towards the ideas I oppose here, this has been true for the entire history of the IGS.

If your deity is nothing but vengeful and punishing then why would anyone want to believe in such a being? If everything is about punishment, hate and wrath what’s the difference between “paradise” and “hell”?

I thought love and forgiveness were supposed qualities of your deity. I guess those are human inventions only.

2 Likes

So, I don’t agree with all of this, and I’ll do my best to be precise about why. First, Book I 1:14 tells us:

“The Amarr people came into the world and the world came into being.
Our illustrious ancestors freed their souls from the evils of the old world and created a new one.
The great Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man.
To do so the enemies of the outside had to be defeated and the enemies of the inside controlled.
The Lord gave our Emperor the power to harness the Good and punish the Evil.
Ever since, the Emperor has lived the lives of his subjects and breathed the air of authority.”

From this passage, we learn there was indeed an old, evil world from which the Amarr people themselves were reclaimed. If redemption from sin and evil were impossible, then we would not exist as a people. More importantly, the Amarr Empire was founded to cultivate the spirit of man, to thus make it more in line with right thinking. Redemption from sin isn’t just responsible for us, it is our responsibility.

To claim otherwise contravenes the great Mission, the Reclaiming, which commands us to bring the Word to the Wordless. The Book of Reclaiming, 22:13, tells us:

“I give to you the destiny of Faith,
And you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens:
Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given.”

If God cannot forgive the evil of being apart from His divine salvation, He would certainly not have commanded us to bring a ‘message’ first and foremost. This is the proper bearing of the Word which we are commanded to conquer by. If such reclamation by Word were impossible, this very Scripture would be invalid. God very obviously expects us to make this attempt even if He has been sinned against (as the entirety of Creation which is not Reclaimed has sinned against Him).

So while the idea of generational slavery paying off a previous sin isn’t necessarily something I disagree with, recall the purpose of the Amarr Empire, to cultivate the spirit of man. We are all of us reclaimed, the Amarr by God, the rest of the Empire by the Amarr, for the purposes of making us all into more righteous people. As Missions 13:21 tells us:

“To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin”

Many quote this without understanding the most important part, that knowing the true path is actually very difficult. Earlier in Missions, 5:14, we are told:

“Which test reveals more of the soul, the test that a man will take to prove his faith, or the test that finds the man who believed his faith already proven? If you know this answer, then you also know which of these challenges bear the greatest penalty for failure. The gates of paradise will open for you one time only; woe to the soul who dares to knock twice.”

Taken together, these two passages reflect the nature of Reclamation. Faith is a means by which we, as human beings, are brought to understand the true path. Only then are we capable of the greatest sin, knowing and yet not doing. Understanding our purpose, yet rejecting it. Being graced by our Heavenly Mandate, then denying it. From this alone, can there be no return. They who die having truly known and rejected the Covenant are truly beyond salvation, for they have deliberately selected not only defiance, but failure. Thus do they not simply fail God, but the Communion of mankind.

The Book of Prophet Kuria, 4:23, states:

“For forty millennia we struggled in the desert.
Time of infinity to grief our misgivings.
Time of eternity to stray without God’s guidance.
One can repent and pray for forgiveness.
But true meekness is one that has penetrated and laid its roots in the very heart of a man.
The stars above will not weep for us parting.
The air we breathe won’t notice our disappearance.
The dirt of the earth will embrace our decadence. Only in God can we thrive and grow.
Only in God.”

The Scripture here is telling on these points, that the sin of man is not having lived in sin. Time seemingly eternal out of God’s graces, of course, would not damn us utterly, Reclamation is always at hand and repent and prayer are forever open to us. What we are commanded to do, though, is to understand that through God, and only through God, can we truly grow. Our material bodies and deeds, though fruitful, are but a moment under the Heavens, and the rocks and skies of Creation will not notice our disappearance. God shall, though, and not only are we told in this passage that redemption and forgiveness are possible, it is that we are all, every one of us, going through a process of cultivation by God. One we accept or deny, but one which is offered to us by the Word.

Most instructive though, here, is the story of Epitoth (as it so often is, though I’ll not quote the entire chapter). Here, we have a very poignant example of man sinning before God, not only that but directly towards his Sefrim instruments. Amash-Akura had remained fit and healthy during the times of plenty afforded by God. But Reclamation is the mandate of the Empire, and when the task of that Reclamation fell to Amash-Akura, he proceeded to demand the help of the instruments of God. When they refused, for such was the mandate of the Empire previously described, he bade them go from his presence.

I shouldn’t have to mention how grievous this was. The punishment even struck those in the Empire, turning the skies black. And yet, that night, having committed a most grievous sin, God spake to Amash-Akura directly, in Epithoth 1:20-23:

20. And that night God spake unto emperor Amash-Akura in his sleep, saying, Thy folly is great, Amash-Akura, thou hast rejected those I sent to thee in thine hour of need. Thou must redeem thyself to me by thine own merits.
21. And next day Amash-Akura had aged all his days and his hair was white and his skin wrinkled. But his spirit was high and his will resolute. God had charged him to take back his empire.
22. For five years Amash-Akura battled his enemies, wielding Scepter and Crown, and he did triumph in the end. Molok the Deceiver was brought before him in chains and sacrificed on the altar of God; the very next day, the emperor died in his bedchamber, his task fulfilled.
23. And that night the sky turned red and the people were again happy that God was content with them and the new emperor.

Thus do we see the full example of rejection of God, that great sin, followed by a command to redemption, followed by actions in the name of God, followed by redemption itself. Forgiveness in a straightforward package.

So while generational slavery and generational sin are matters of continuing debate, and certainly I agree that they shouldn’t be used as excuses by poor Holders to neglect their duties, it’s important to note that to grow in the being and the body of God is the stated purpose of the Empire, extending the possibility of that growth isn’t just commanded of us directly, but is how we bring people to the only true test of the Faith, and that forgiveness from sin isn’t just directly offered, it’s been offered directly by God in response to some of the most heinous rejection of the Covenant we’ve ever recorded. In any case, it is no requirement of rejecting inherited sin that we should discount the Wisdom of God, to know the righteous from the irredeemable, or reject our mandate of improvement, both for ourselves and our brethren.

10 Likes

Yes, I understand that. But considering generational slavery has been around since the Amarr took to space, and slave populations have been deemed to have ‘earned’ their freedom, like the Ni-Kunni, it would seem that without the concept of ‘generational sin’, all slave populations should have been freed within a single generation. Children raised knowing nothing but the Amarr faith, after all, could hardly be claimed to have been resisting it.

Without the concept of generational sin, the concept of slavery beyond the first becomes nothing more than cruelty. What have newborns done to warrant enslavement, rather than enlightened fosterage?

2 Likes

I am reasonably sure I dealt with that issue in the essay.

But you didn’t. You worked around it. You said:

And that they

But this is ludicrous. What debt does a newborn owe? The child has not agreed to any terms. It is incapable of doing so. To assert that the child ‘owes’ for the damages of a sin committed before the child was born is ludicrous. The child has not benefited from that sin. The child was not party to that sin. More, the parent has already had all that they owned confiscated, by the simple act of being enslaved.

The assertion of this ‘debt’ is nothing more than exactly the kind of sanist greed and self-interest that you rightly condemn: an excuse not to reliquish property rights over human beings who have committed no crime, and given no offense. If two people are enslaved for their crime of heathenry, and they have four children who are all raised in the faith, their sin has not suddenly tripled in magnitude, that it suddenly requires the enslavement of not two, but six people.

If there is damage done by the original sin, then that damage is not done against man, but against God. And if your position is right, then the criminal is enslaved not to repay the debt, but to contain their influence. The child being given the chance to be raised within the faith is not a cost incurred by the Amarr, that the child should be expected to ‘repay’ it, but a gift of God to the Amarr, that they might have the chance to succeed where they had failed with the previous generation. To raise such a child as a full member of society should not be seen as a debt that must be repaid, but a joyous opportunity to celebrate and be thankful for.

1 Like

From this passage, we learn there was indeed an old, evil world from which the Amarr people themselves were reclaimed. If redemption from sin and evil were impossible, then we would not exist as a people.

Are you truly saying that the Prophet Gheinok and his followers were sinners? I think perhaps you are using the word to mean a much wider set of human errors than I am.

The Reclaiming is not about purifying the fallen but about redeeming the few remaining people who were living in the darkness outside of Amarr but remained uncorrupted. The Book of Reclaiming 4:45, and 25:10, for example both talk about the consequences for those who choose not to believe.

This I agree with. And I do not believe anything in my essay contradicts it.

The Great Amash-Akura committed a folly, but when that folly was pointed out he immediately repented and worked to correct it. Humans can fail without committing a sin that damns their immortal souls so long as they immediately work to correct that human failing. If, alternatively, Amash-Akura had rejected the divine correction, then he would have committed a sin for which there would be no forgiveness.

1 Like

I think it’s quite interesting that you picked the less substantive and earlier of the discussions of that issue to quote, after having acted as if it wasn’t addressed at all. It’s almost as if you are reading just far enough to find something to object to.

1 Like

No, because the later discussion of the issue is predicated on the earlier discussion. In fact, while I didn’t quote it directly, my statement about how the idea of a newborn incurring debt is ludicrous, and how the raising of the child is not a cost to be repaid but a gift to be celebrated goes directly to this statement in that later discussion:

You accuse Holders of sanist greed and self-interest, but seeking to recoup expenses for the ownership of slaves—as if the slaves themselves are not engaged in activities which provide the Holder with economic benefits—is no less an example of greed and self-interest. To then transfer that imagined ‘debt’ onto the child is just a naked play to indulge in even more avarice to one’s own benefit.

Just because I didn’t feel the need to quote your concurring statements in section IV on the scale of sin generational slavery would require to justify it doesn’t mean I didn’t read it. Rather, I felt that they, as well as the rest of section IV, were not germane to the issue. Whether or not the throne can offer temporal mercy is meaningless. Why the throne might do so is similarly meaningless. None of that even begins to address the issue.

Nothing you have said in the entire essay addresses the issue. To claim that you have is as hollow an evasion as to claim that because you are operating on the scale of decades, or centuries, this invalidates the need to support your claim that these concepts are ‘recent’. At no point in this discussion have I been operating on any shorter time-frame. Why would I? When dealing with policies on generational slavery and sin, the time-frame referenced would need to be decades and centuries. To attempt to discuss generational policies in a time-frame of less than at least 3-4 generations—easily over a century, even in the harshest conditions—is pointless.

Generational Slavery that one can work their way out of is ancient and goes back to at least the initial reclaiming. The system of criminal slavery vs debt slavery I described allowed for the incorporation and eventual near total manumission of the Ni’Kunni, as well as the skipping of slavery almost entirely of the Khanid and Ammatar. In the case of the Ni’Kunni, most Ni’Kunni would have been incorporated at one of the many debt slavery levels rather than the criminal slave level, and as such they had much less work to do to be free commoners. Amarr is a stratified society with inherited obligations, the fact that you personally find that absurd does not make it not the way our system works.

Generational Inherited Sin that can be slowly worked off is what is the relatively recent idea. That is an idea that has been gaining popularity for some time, especially in the last two decades, but as of yet I have not found examples of it that pre-date the last several centuries.

1 Like

That Amarr is a stratified society also has nothing to do with the issue. If there is a debt involved in the birth of an infant whose parents were not of the faith, to Amarr who will then raise the child within the faith, the debt is owed by the Amarr, to God—for giving them the chance to correct their earlier failure. Claiming that the child owes a debt to those who are already benefiting from the parents’ life-long labor is pride and avarice, and nothing more.

As for the recentness of generational inherited sin… again, I’m simply asking for something that demonstrates your position. Nothing you’ve offered is irreconcilable with such a concept existing for millennia with the Empire.

The fact that no one was talking about the idea when I went through school around 140 years ago is what got me started looking for the origins when Kernher created such a clear example of why the belief was dangerous to the structure of Amarr. I haven’t yet found the origin point of the idea, but I plan on hiring historians to find out as much as is possible to know about the evolution of the idea.

3 Likes

Fair enough. I’d be interested in hearing what your historians learn.

Thanks.

So many Amarr pretend to be good people with good intentions. Its nice that some are still honest and just come out and say both they and God are arseholes.

Its a nice reminder of why we fight. Il bookmark this in case any Capsuleer seems like they’re considering getting off their cosy fence.

While the idea of not making someone pay for their ancestors is nice (who,really, frees slaves because they worked their debt off, exactly? Didnt that only happen once on a real scale?) the entire rest of it about an unforgiving god is worth framing and hanging on the wall.

Write more.

1 Like

Slaves have been manumitted throughout Amarr history for good service to Amarr. The Udorians, the Ni’Kunni, and now many of the Matari have all risen from slave to Commoner. It is far from a one time thing.

Though your post perhaps illustrates a language issue, while I talk about debt slavery it is not really in the sense of a monetary amount that can be “paid off” so much as an obligation to society that you are born into. Everyone in Amarr owes a debt of service to Amarr and to God, no matter what level of society they are at. The performance of our ancestors dictates that we are born into a certain class based set of obligations, restrictions, and duties. If we perform those well, we should be promoted, if we perform them poorly we should be demoted. The inherited debt to society dictates our rank at birth, what we do with our lives dictates our rank at death.

The work done by those who are born into the lower classes of Amarr is worth celebrating when it is true acts of service to Amarr and to God! I can think of no higher praise than to call someone a true slave of God.

4 Likes

I suppose we will just have to be patient for another few generations, huh?

That is the problem with you people: Your inability to think for yourselves.

1 Like

That is the problem with you people: Your inability to think for yourselves.

The Wrath of God is Immense. His Justice is Swift and Decisive. His Tolerance is Limited.
Be Careful. Pure Thought is the Instigator of Sin.
Be Watchful. Free Thought is the Begetter of Disorder.
Be Respectful. Uniform Thought is the Way of Life.
The Mercy of our Emperor is Limitless. Her Rule is Benign and Righteous. Her Love is Perpetual.

An interesting essay, Chapter Master.

I have a question if I may.

How do you see the Empress Jamyl’s, may her soul be at peace, Great Emancipation fitting into all of this ?