That’s too complicated for them to understand.
Is it completely pointless to save your own ship?
Or is it just pointless to save someone else’s?
That post just flew right over your head, didn’t it, Aiko?
Either that, or my response flew over your head.
The only move is to have a Logi on hand at all times. There is nothing your little volkswagon bugs can do to out DPS a true outfitted Logi.
That’s it. There’s no getting revenge. Your trash bugs are already destroyed. There’s no hunting you down- your escape pods are already running for cover so you can log off.
The next best thing to a Logi is to have so much tank that your bugs can’t penetrate it.
Fighting in a belt is pointless. Destroying the bugs is meaningless. The only move is to survive until Concord arrives.
I can give some actual stats. When I was ganking, which was around 2 years ago, the total cost of each gank including T2 Catalysts ( there were only 4 of us so we needed the highest DPS ) was around 32m ISK per Catalyst including tags etc. So the cost of losing all 4 in the fleet to Concord was around 128m ISK. The amount dropped by the average mining barge was usually less than that. So zero profit. BUT…we were not ganking for profit anyway. We were ganking to scare people off AO turf. I never made a cent out of it ( though I did discover that huge profit could be made from selling clone tags ).
What does that have to do with fighting back? The ganker ships are already going to be destroyed. The other barges sending out drones to attack them won’t accomplish anything. Do you really think that the ships will get destroyed harder? I don’t understand what you think the end result could possibly be. You honestly think losing 5 barges instead of one is a good idea?
Your net loss was 128m ISK? Cry me a river! A single Hulk is 350 million ISK yet you’re wondering why miners won’t lose 5 barges instead of 1. They say miners can’t do math! Sure I can make that much in a single day, but I sure as hell won’t lose 1.75 billion ISK!!! (By the way, since math is hard for you, that’s the afore mentioned 5 Hulks just because one is being ganked).
My statement wasn’t about “hunting gankers”, but making a “reverse gank” in order to just show that they an. I am pretty sure you can remove one of the permanently “sitting duck” tornados (which are NOT just exposed in space only for a short time with only 2-3 catalysts (a ganker might correct me if I am wrong).
The “profit”, would be to secure a route you want to use and save your own ship(s). It’s not always about making money right from the action. From 90% of all my ingame activities a absolutely don’t make any money. People COULD do a lot more against ganking, which was the point of my statement. But they don’t. Because they are too lazy to organize a fleet, too lazy to learn what you can actually - successfully - do against a waiting ganker crew (and you can do a lot) to make them fail their gank and enable you a successful passage.
There’s no value to mining if there’s no risk!
128M ISK is like an hour’s ISK earning. As I said, cheap disposables.
Regardless, it’s not about the cost. It’s about making the system interesting. Commit crime / buy back standing is just a cheapass mechanic. EVE is supposed to be about consequences. The consequence of repetitive crime should be permanent, unredeemable criminal status. Not running back to daddy Concord with a handful of tags and mumbling "Forgive me father, for I have sinned…
Pirates should live and interact as pirates. There should be profits to being a pirate, and pay for hunting them. There should be tactics and risks that both sides tug-of-war with to see who gets the upper hand. That’s how you build a sandbox that actually makes its own content.
Lol…I love the drama. I was obsessed by maximum tank when I was a noob. Then it became maximum align speed and the tank was lowered. And so on. You’ll grow out of the ’ I must have 50 gazillion EHP ’ phase. Ya know…I sit outside Jita or lurk at gates, in ships often with just 37K EHP.
It can’t all be just about profit. Personally I could not care less about profit. I want kills. And I doubt most gankers are in it solely for profit…though obviously it does help pay for things. I already have gazillions of ISK sitting around. What do I want more for ?
Nah sorry, you’re just loosely imagining some sort of ‘retaliation strike’ and then further imagining it will have any sort of impact. You’re clearly not aware of current ganking mechanics.
I won’t argue it with you - like hunting gankers, there’s no point and no profit in it. I’ll just tell you that if it’s so easy, and is just a matter of “not being lazy”, then feel free to go kill a couple of those ‘sitting ducks’ and ‘reverse gank’ them.
Then tell us how long it took, how much it cost you to do it, what you got out of it, and how few minutes it took for that same ganker to show right back up in their next disposable ship waiting at the same spot.
You’ll quickly find out the meaning of “both pointless and unprofitable”. An activity could be one of those, and still be engaged in. But if it’s both, it’s going to be nothing but a very rare oddity undertaken by somebody really bored or poorly informed.
Well thank you for the link. I just don’t agree with him. If people just “stop scanning” because it would make them suspect, I ask myself if they deserve the informations gained by scanning (which enable them to very accurately calculate if profit is basically guaranteed).
I am more on your side that actively scanning someone is already an aggressive act. It’s not like “looking at something”, like zooming in or staring at someone, watching the public availabe attributes of something or someone. Using a scanner is an intrusion to gain protected information.
And as I have already explained: It’s still doable, even under suspect timer. Be quick, be on your toes, pay attention and make clever decisions. Suspects move around HS all the time, it’s not like a death sentence. It’s just not possible any more with a sitting-duck tornado or an unattended alt, is has to be done by an Active player as part of a group that works together. I have to do such a job in PvP all the time when flying a Ceptor for example. It is my job to stay alive and provide informations to the FC. It’s challenging, yes. And why shouldn’t it be?
I would even have no hesitations to “buff” scanning in return. Give it more range, let it cycle faster, let it be more accurate… whatever.
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And yet you’re the one bringing up the price tags of the operation. I mentioned nothing about making it cost more. I talked about it having a permanent consequence. In fact, my approach would reduce the cost, since there’d be no more clone tags to worry about.
Vokan’s point was that when lurking at Jita, if he went suspect every time he scanned then he’d be destroyed too often by all the other Tornadoes, Hurricanes, etc that also lurk there…and probably by me too as I hunt suspects outside Jita. I suspect he is right…as though there is generally a ’ dont shoot me and I wont shoot you’ unwritten code between the lurkers there’s also killmail whores ( and me ) sitting there precisely for such eventuality as anyone going suspect.
That’s why I changed it from ‘every’ scan to being a percentage risk of going suspect on scanning. Or add some other factors as well. The point is to change it from 100% safe to something less…even 98% would give pause for thought.
No, I am not. Like not all ganking is profitable, not all antiganking has to be profitable. Sometimes you simply accept some expenses to deliver a message. Just like the gankers do.
I even agree that the current mechanics don’t really reward a playstile of “law enforcement” and I am all in favor to change things so antiganking and ganking can be turned into a cat/mouse game instead of the boring 20sec-damage-calculation game we have now.
But I don’t like the myths that “nothing can be done”. It can. If a corp or group or whoever wants to organize a fleet to protect their transports, they COULD. And it would work. The profit is no killmail and loot, but the safe passage. And the successful op, which is a value in itself. Not all value has to be monetary. I do 90% of the things ingame without making “ISK” from it. But I guarantee you: With a well-organized escort crew, I breach through any ganker’s blockade. But that would require me to organize, not be lazy, and having lots of knowledge about the game mechanics. As I wrote.
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I was agreeing that there’s little profit in ganking most barges…but also stating that personally I don’t care for profit, and I suspect Safety are also mostly after just the ‘kills’ but get most of their actual profit from the fewer number of larger kills ( and from permits ).
Permanent consequence ? That’s like giving someone life imprisonment for stealing a bag of chips.
I absolutely understand his argument. I just say: then cooperate. Don’t scan with the same ship that should do the gank. Have an active player collect the information about a lucrative target, pass it to the damagedealer, he does the kill. Like every gatecamp needs a scout, a ganker needs a scanner.
Yeah that would make “sitting in your Tornado and scanning one hauler after the other until you shoot” impossible. Well, adapt or die. This stupid nonsense is actually one of the most boring and misdesigned “PvP mechanic” in the game. If it was up to me, all NPC stations should tether as well to finally get rid of that nonsense. Ganking (or better: HS piracy) should be an active task where you have to be on the move all the time, not just sitting still in the ever same location just waiting for the 1 click-kill. It’s totally beyond me how anyone could find this a good game mechanic.
I am all in favor of HS piracy, but not that crap, sry.
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You lose a trash ship when taking down expensive ships. There’s no risk in that. You are a carebear. You could hunt in Marauders, yet you actively choose bugs.
I fly expensive ships when mining and make a lot of ISK. I spit upon the F1 monkeys that come hunting in bugs.
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