Exploit defense - is it worth it?

Most of the ‘quality of life’ suggestions I’ve made, well on this alt, anyway, have been rebuffed with the expedient defense of ‘it will be exploited.’

The game is full of bots, full of corps that just grow larger and larger, sucking down every available resource, dropping unstoppable fleets on top of anyone who challenges them. They exploit. Every available mechanic, every time.

To be fair, there is resistance against this, not terribly vocal, but there is. I tend to enjoy smaller gang pvp, ad-hoc, and not all that much anything related to isk generation, so one of my suggestions regarded insurance.

That it pay, for what you actually have, at the time of insuring. Compared to the organized exploitation of every mechanic in the game by the large alliances farming the ever-luvin crap out of things, exploiting the insurance would be a waste of time.

Nevertheless, this is the objection raised against giving little people a fair shake at using what they trained for without crapping their pants every time they undock.

There are two games, really, going on here. The ‘core’ and the ‘casuals.’ Giving casuals a buffer, to replace what they lost, at least 75% of it, so they can be back up in a day or two, is really, really, going to be more ‘exploitable’ than the farming the ‘core’ does, already?

Do you really think so? I admit, economy is not my thing. But I see how rich, how powerful, big alliances are, how much they can afford to defend their interests. I have a hard time seeing them waste time on insurance scams that would pay less. How would this, in theory, work?

Say they all docked up, stopped farming what they already do, and focused on totally exploiting decent insurance. Would they make more, or less isk, than they do now?

No, I honestly do not know. I do not do market stuff.

It has happened before, with FW LP iirc.

Yes, it has, and a lot has changed, since then, not just in nerfs, but in newer, easier to farm income methods.

Would it be worth it, today, to toss all the easy new income, for this exploit, is my question. A question I can’t answer, because, again, I don’t care about isk. Hence, I don’t much worry about more than ‘can I buy another of what I’m flying?’

Apparently you will keep making threads wandering around the same core topic (“I got ganked and it hurt, make it hurt less please!”) until things are explained to you in baby talk. So here goes:

It wasn’t the big, tough alliances that ganked you. You pretty much ganked yourself by flying a ship you couldn’t defend into places you weren’t experienced enough to be in. Paying you more insurance will only make it easier for you to continue to refuse to learn from all the numerous sources of information around you. You have proven to be blind to anything but the current sorta-point you are trying to make.

Anything that can be put into game has to be evaluated against the ‘exploit’ tactic. It’s not about the big, tough alliances. It’s not about the vets with skills and decent ships (who ganked you, and which you found to be a major, life-altering experience, but which they perceived as ‘a slow 20 minutes, doesn’t anything interesting ever happen around here?’).

If it can be exploited, it will be. It will be exploited by anyone who finds it profitable. It will be exploited by free alpha accounts and paid Omega accounts. It will be exploited by rookies and miners and station traders. It will be magnified by the 20-to-30 thousand accounts online at any one time, all of whom are potential exploiters. If an easy 100,000 ISK exists to be made, then people will set up bots to farm it.

So yes, anything that can be exploited, will be.

On a funny note, in another thread you mentioned “why doesn’t CCP just fix the stuff we pay them to fix” (or words to that effect)… and then about 5 posts later you say “I don’t pay anything here”. So, yeah, you get what you pay for.


Yes, until i understand it enough to be satisfied that it’s totally unfeasible, I will. I get the same attitude from the hardcore players, all the time, and what your point basically boils down to, from my perspective is:

Our lives were hard, when the game was developing. For 15 years, we had it hard. We don’t care if it CAN be easier for you, we’re not gonna let that happen.

Then some of what you say, is actually verifiably true, but it’s a mix of butthurt core vet pride, and some real actual reasons. The hard part is deciding where this line is, but that line is there.

Your very attitude speaks volumes. I come in and ask for your expertise, not your insults. I ask you to answer the questions I put to you, not make up stories about the good ol’ days.

Like usual, I think the truth, that lies somewhere in the middle. It usually does.

Nah, you keep missing the point repeatedly, because you don’t want to get it. It’s also funny to see you calling “butthurt core vet pride” when you’ve been butthurt whining for what, 3 days solid now?

The point is: EVE is a competitive sandbox arena. It is an interesting challenge for those who are more technically and detail oriented, who enjoy working with complex mechanics to gain advantage and increase their abilities.

The potential for loss is what makes the competition ‘real’ for the target audience. It isn’t a hand-holding game. It isn’t a ‘casual’ game. It isn’t a game for whiney noobs who won’t learn how to play, won’t take precautions, won’t fly only what they can afford to lose, and won’t listen no matter how many times things are pointed out to them.

Basically, you are the guy who likes the ‘cool factor’ of being a chess player, but when you start to lose, you cry “Hey, these rules are too complex. How did that guy from way over there take my guy over here? Why are you beating up on me just because you have more practice, experience, dedication to the game? Why can’t I get one piece back for every 2 you take away? That’s unfair that you take more than I do anyway. Why are these moves so complicated? When I played checkers things were never this confusing.”

You failed at a basic element of the game, and now you want the game changed to make failure hurt less. But as said before (and you totally missed learning from it then also), why stop at 25% loss? Why not refund the whole thing? Why not just have you respawn with your ship and build at your home base? After all, why should a casual have to shop around and waste time and money to replace anything at all?

It was only taken away from him by ‘coaster vets, backed by supermega Null alliances, stroking their ego by farming the weak’, right? No way he should have to replace anything… they should be paying him for bothering to grace the game with his presence at all.

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What’s an alpha? Why have them? You, again, are talking the ‘good ol’ days.’

It wasn’t, a casual game, but it’s partially one, now. CCP made it so.

Because that would be unreasonable? I answered this in the threads the ISD closed, I talked about how you guys should have more power, for your longer existence, but you have too much of it, comparatively.

I’ll wait for someone other than you to respond, I guess. Because you can’t see past your dislike for me, or your own status as a core player. I’m not surprised, and it’s ok. CCP changed your game. And I’m sure they didn’t ask you, first.

The first question for any possible change you suggest should be ‘can this be exploited’.
The second question is ‘would this exploit be considered an interesting addition to the game’.

This is because people in this competitive sandbox will exploit anything exploitable for their advantage, so only suggestions without exploits, or exploits with interesting game mechanics (such as microwarp cloak tricks and such) should be in the game. Any other suggestion would only make the game worse.

I have no idea what kind of quality of life suggestions you made, but try to keep in mind that people will use any change to their benefit and they won’t necessarily play ‘fair’.

Just because the game is “full of bots” doesn’t justify knowingly making it worse.

The thing is when you look at what bots are doing, you usually find something that overpays for the effort; so not only is it ok to nix feature ideas that are bot bait, it is usually ok to nerf the activities bots are doing.

Bots choose the easy money and we are anti easy money in a big big way :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

I respect your right to say what you want. But I disagree with it. Same right.

From what I can see, and I’m no great exploiter of economy, the new income methods dwarf insurance scams.

But, then.

‘Core’ is playing to ‘win’ eve. Casuals are playing to kill time. Cut us some slack?

It is possible to play EVE casually. But don’t expect EVE to adjust to you, you will need to take basic precautions because non-casual players are competing in the same universe. That’s the core idea of EVE: everyone playing together (and/or against eachother) in one big sandbox with barely any rules.

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Back at ya. CCP trashed your game with our very existence. 15 years of expertise, real life experience, hundreds of millions of sp, T2 grandfathered bpo’s?

Nah, man, cut the ■■■■, we gotta draw a line, somewhere. We need to meet somewhere in the middle.

Whos game? I’m pretty much a newbie in this game, just like you. I have no hundreds of millions of SP, no experience flying most ships but a few, no grandfathered bpos or anything you’re afraid of. I like playing the game casually and have no intention of ‘winning’ anything. I just like flying around in the EVE universe, killing time. I guess just like you.

Then why are you so salty and am I enjoying the game? Are you sure you’re trying to play the right game for you? Because the line you’re trying to draw is way outside EVE’s intended demographic, you’re better off playing some game where other players can have no negative impact on your gameplay whatsoever.

You don’t have to enjoy EVE. Maybe try something else?

Am I sure I’m trying the right game for me? Well, no, I’m not. That’s why my paying sub dropped to Alpha. I’m not exactly a new alpha, nor am I a bitter 15 year ‘vet.’

In the middle, and I also played Dust 514. I was not impressed with how CCP treated us. I try to overlook some of this, and sometimes I fail?

Maybe I can be pissed like you can?

If a game pisses me off I usually try to find something else.

That’s very wise. But I do sorta have a time investment, here, and instead of just dumping it, well.

Maybe I can ride it out. CCP is a fickle little beast. They change all the time. Sometimes good, sometimes bad. I get ya, and yer not wrong, though.

It’s not like the core idea of EVE changed over time, so why did you invest time in a game that has never been your cup of tea? I also don’t think the ruthless PvP nature of the game will change, so thinking you can ride it out may be a false hope.

I like the ruthless nature of pvp of the game. I just don’t like having to play a lot of other games, to generate isk, to get back in a ship to ruthlessly pvp.

Like I said, there are really two games, now.

So the essence of your problem is not the concept of the game itself, the problem is that your ISK generation doesn’t cover for your ISK spending?
What is it you did for ISK generation and what kind of ships did you spend ISK on for the explosions?

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I ran L4 missions. It was spent on faction cruisers.