I thought this would be fixed by now, but since it is not, I feel I need to point it out.
CPP felt it was needed to change the cost of building Faction ships by adding parts that are not in the non faction versions. The merits of this is not the topic here. The topic is they left a huge loop hole to get around it. In almost any LP store you can just take the non faction ship and a chip and upgrade the ship. Effectively building the faction ship without any need for the new components. This is bad because it makes faction BPCâs almost worthless as the cost of building them is way more then the ships market value.
So what I would suggest is these new components be needed to buy the ships from the LP store. So for example to get a Raven Navy Issue you would need Raven + Caldari AZ-1 Nexus Chip + 50 R-O Trigger Neurolink Conduit. Which would almost balance out the cost of getting the ship by getting the Raven Navy Issue BPC from the LP store and building it.
I just donât think it is good to have these indy changes then leave such an easy way around them. It is almost like deliberately having an exploit in the game.
Ok, disregarding the work, time, and exposure it takes to amass a decent amount of LP points to support making an LP Store purchase and simply calling it a âLoopholeâ, you would choose to nerf a system thatâs been around years in favor of simply adjusting a very recent ad-hoc patch which is only a tiny part of a huge systemic depressionary change imposed upon a virtual universe over a projected yearâs period just so that the massive-scale botting by the largest null-sec alliances can be shoved back under the table a little bit longer? Frankly, with the new system you only need whip out what ever you use for an isk-machine, and bypass all the work, Iâd call that the Loophole or exploit, if there is one at all of either in the subject.
That is very true; in addition to the overhead cost of the mission boat, and the manufacture of its ammo, and the great number of missions which must be done (much less turned down due standings, etc), just to get a faction boat in the LP store, the PVEâr also has to construct a T1 BS, out of minerals mined as much as possible with even more overhead in training and ships, as retail bites, (if BS is the goal), and ship it to the station where the LP purchase is required. So glad you brought that point up. Shipping is an irritation, albeit the most minor.
I get the impression you have some experience in manufacture, or at least shipping, of faction boats; would you know the relative percentage of PVE-sourced vs Manufactured-in-volume-sourced faction boats on the market? Iâd be curious of the # if so. Thanks.
It depends if it was CCPâs intention to keep the faction ships price around what they always were. It does seem like an oversight because there is now a such a wide spread between the two.
For the empire faction ships the only LP store you should be buying from is the Faction Warfare ones, they give a huge discount on them, and also make getting the LP not too hard. If you want a faction ship for your mission runner, trade your LP for isk in a more profitable way then buy from the market. But that is not the point.
My point is the huge discrepancy between the two options right now and also how it gives a easy way around the indy changes. I donât really care how it is fixed (I also feel to complain about a problem without giving at least one possible solution is just lazy so I gave one, even if it is maybe not the best) but that right now for example to get a Raven Navy Issue hull from the State Protectorate LP store is a return of 1205 isk/lp but to get the BPC is a loss of -1575 isk/lp (assuming you then build and sell the ship). You can check the numbers if you like LP Store - Return on ISK - State Protectorate - The Forge Sell
I am just asking for consistency. Either remove the need from the BPC or in one way or other equalise the value of both options in the LP store.
Crikey. Yes, you are right. There is a wide range between the two options in your example. FW was not in my mind; I have essential tremors and so Marauder in bastion with all the accompanying extra time to do get things done naturally had me drawing from the sources I am placed in ⌠and with PVE income taken such a huge hit so far this year⌠Not an excuse, just the route that got me there.
Never considered how âscarcityâ has affected FW, and your suggested fix sounds good.
Well, my question is, do faction ships really need to be as expensive as they are? Donât get me wrong, they are most certainly powerful. But I donât buy into the whole âscarcity breeds warâ and âship loss should hurtâ line of thinking. Scarcity might encourage large groups to fight over resources, but expensive ships makes individual players risk adverse, and can even lead to them logging off rather than wanting to do a bunch of grinding for their ships.
Yes, loss should have meaning in Eve. And I donât think that capitals should be so cheap that they are viewed as disposable by large numbers of players. However, high ship prices seem to be having a big effect on how many players perceive risk and play the game.
I feel for industry bros who have found the profitability of so many items dry up. However, Iâm not sure that a change that will further increase the costs of ships is one that will be good for the game as a whole. So, for right now, I ask that you be patient, and see if the end of resource scarcity and player adaptation can help bring build costs down to a more reasonable level (and maybe explore other options, like T2 production in the meantime).
You make some good points but they are more about the indy changes, the merits of which is not what I want to draw attention to. Enough has been said on that elsewhere. The topic is why have the indy changes, then leave a way around, that make those BPCâs worthless? It is a lazy oversight, that should be fixed.
I find it weird that LP stores provide an option to buy ships directly from LP (or via the loophole described above). I think it would be a good improvement if LP stores only provide BPCâs (and no longer ships directly).
This will:
Remove the mismatch between LP cost for a ship and BPC
Drive economy, someone has to build the ship (ships no longer magically appear from an LP store)
BPC that drop from DEDâs will represent some value (instead of worthless right now due to LP to ship conversion)
I do not see this devaluation of Faction Warfare LP. The market will settle at a new price based on materials instead of LP value for a ship with my proposed change, with a benefit that faction BPC dropâs from DED sites now represent some value again.
Iâm no FW pilot, but I think that prior to recent industry (input material) changes you were buying faction BPCâs from the LP store to build faction ships (instead of buying ships directly as you do now after industry changes).
One of the greatest LP/ISK values from the Faction Warfare LP Store is converting the LP straight into Ships with the Nexus Chips. It is also one of the easiest and for me personally was my #1 and almost sole income source.
At the time, Caracal Navy Issues.
I do not have Industrial Alts. Having to purchase the minerals would greatly reduce the value.
Which is the point of your proposal, a good point at that.
I would just like highlight how it would affect FW PvPers that as I mentioned, already struggle at times funding the PVP.
My goal is not to undermine your main income stream. Merely to provide an alternative to:
@Telaila_Endashi suggestion is to add new components to the LP store to take the additonal build cost due to the indostry changes into account in the LP store when buying a faction ship:
My proposal is to remove the direct ship buying capabilities from the LP store, and only sell BPCâs. The underlying goal for both suggestions is the same (give faction BPCâs a value again).
You do know you have to give the base model of the ship in addition to the LP and the chip to actually get the faction hull right? Itâs not âmagicallyâ appearing. Someone had to build that base hull.
Sounds like you are specifically talking about Pirate Faction ships. I donât really have skin in the Pirate Faction market. As an Amarr FW member, I do care about being able to produce my own Osprey Navy Issues, Omen Navy Issues, Slicers, and Apocalypse Navy Issues. Changing this would negatively impact all of FW, which has been in a bad state for half a decade. One of the only real financial incentives to fight in FW at the moment is for cheaper Navy Faction ships.
Indeed, several âfactionâ ships exists in game, and can be bought from the LP store:
Pirate factions ships magically appear from the LP store. For example, the phantasm can be bought for 240.000 LP + 15 mil isk (no base hull required), see https://www.ellatha.com/eve/LPSearch/phantasm/
Navy faction ships also sort of magically appear from the LP store, but do indeed require a T1 hull. This is different from a navy/pirate faction BPC, which just requires materials and no base hull, see https://www.ellatha.com/eve/LPSearch/caracal-navy-issue/
I canât say a whole lot to the Pirate Faction ships, but Iâd imagine this was intentional because transporting a cruiser hull or a battleship hull is a lot harder than a BPC. It makes it worthwhile for those who want to do that. Iâm willing to bet, outside of locals and prior to the industry change, no one bought the hull with their LP.
In the case of the Navy Faction ships, it makes sense that you donât need all of the new materials as the Navy takes care of that for you. All you gotta do is turn in a chip, a T1 hull, LP and some ISK.
Itâs all about the trade offs here. BPCs were dominant for a long time and now there are legitimate reasons to purchase the hull instead of the BPC, and then haul it out to where you need it.
I doubt it would change anything with FW LP if the prices of the Hull and BPC are balanced out. Reason I can say that is up until a few months ago they were.
