For the rewards firstly and as their conscious goal because the markets crave datacores, faction modules and faction ships, and as targets for the other people who like to shoot other ships as unconscious goal sort of outside their influence.
Plenty of pilost do pvp âon the sideâ when they feel they have the isk, time etc.
Fw could be a good outlet for this especialy w the added bonus of rewarding success, therby softening the loss of pvp(not erasing it) witch in turn should increase the frequency of participating. Also: existing members will atract others (to a limit of course)
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Think of it as the nowdays popular microtransactions, lots of little losses/costs hurt less, therby one is more willing to engage in it even if by the end the same ammont of value is lost inexchange for the participation.
allowing participants to get more fights out of the same iskpool, while still adding to the overall destruction/loss of what cpp wants.
And where do they get the ISK from? Reward LP.
FW is already rewarding success by increasing rewards per tiers and control. And donât you get LP rewards for destroying opposing FW pilots, too?
No, pvp, even in fw is a lossy process, no point in trying to change that, can be softened yes but the loss however small it is have to be gathered elsewhere, farming selling plex whatever.
Tiers and controll in current form reward farming and not pvp success, hence my suggestion to have killrewards to be the only reward.
I used to be in FW a lot.
Caldari when it first came out (these were the golden days)
Later Minmatar, then Amarr.
Amarr currently is ⌠decent ⌠which is far from good but not as bad as Black Rise tm.
I still roam there on the regular looking for fights and its just sad.
FW is the embodyment of everything wrong with EVE atm.
Extremely Risk Averse community
Risk averse fleetcomps.
All about farming and botting
The larger groups âoverfishin their pondâ
CCP needs to adress these issues as a whole. Not just regarding FW.
- Better possibilites to lock enemy fleets down. Especially kiting comps. Bettter ways to hide ones number and comp (d-scan hiding, local chat hiding)
- Buff NPCs all across new eden to make it near impossible to AFK or bot. I am talking trig / fob rat levels here. We got the A.I⌠so why not use it.
- Huge buffs to âblobbingâ. Too many logi can damage a ship that is being repaired. i.e. more than 10 reps start damaging instead of repairing. Something like that to nerf blobs. Warp speed slows down depending on ships in fleet warp. Call it mass entanglement or something.
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No, thatâs a bad idea.
If there are no non-pvp farming rewards, there will be no foundation for a healthy PvP ecosystem.
A region needs to, on average, provide value (ISK, LP, minerals, etc) for players to be worth it to be there.
- PvP on itself is destructive and does not provide value â not a healthy foundation to draw players
- PvP with enough rewards for killing other ships to the point that it provides value on average (taking into account ship destruction) means that people can (and will!) farm alts in cheap ships
- PvP with LP rewards low enough that people cannot farm alts in cheap ships means the PvP on average destroys value, which brings us back to the first point: the region has no healthy foundation to draw players
- Killing alts is no âhealthy foundationâ either, but at least it draws people to the region. Anyway, we should avoid this!
The only way to have a healthy ecosystem is to have an activity that provides value even if no other players are present. Only then you can have a region where a lone PvPer can expect to find targets to shoot. That PvPer is looking to find targets and heâll find his targets elsewhere if your region is empty of non-pvp rewards and therefore empty of targets.
Removing LP rewards for capturing complexes and adding more rewards to PvP kills will kill the regions. Either the rewards are good enough that people start killing their alts, or the rewards arenât good enough and nobody will go there anymore, as for PvP to happen, there need to be other players first.
Without non-PvP LP rewards, the only non-PvPing targets that a PvPers can look for are the players that go after non-FW rewards such as asteroids, gas, ratting. I imagine that if PvEers can choose between two systems, all other things being equal, they will prefer to do their PvE activity in a system where PvP isnât extra encouraged with LP on PvP kills. So theyâll avoid your FW systems.
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As someone who has not done faction war yet, the main things that stop me from going there are:
- Standings. I really dislike grinding and donât want to mess them up and be forced to grind them back later
- Corporation. Iâm happy in my current corp and donât want to leave it to be able to do FW
Iâd like to try FW one day, but Iâm not really interested in creating an alt for FW nor am I willing to mess up my main. So I guess I wonât do FW. So if you ask me what a FW overhaul would include: make it easier to participate.
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I think a very good first step would be to read.
If the lp rewards are removed from plexing (and Iâm only suggesting this because a complete change of the system is much more effort for the devs), players need to have some activity that earns LP other than killing or missions. So what would be the difference of what plexing currently is? Perhaps the fact that it wont affect warzone control to the point where actual FW players canât be bothered with it?
Why does suggesting to increase the LP rewards for kills immediately is presumed that Iâm suggesting that the reward should exceed the actual cost of the ship? Because thatâs what is needed to make it worth for people to do that.
This assumes the above false presumption. And how do kills affect the warzone control in the first place?
This is simply not true! Again, why is this black or white? To make it worth killing alts means to have a reward higher that the cost of the ship. But even HALF of the cost of the ship (which makes it pointless to kill alts) is a HUGE reward that has the potential to sustain someone whoâs gone out with a 100m isk ship and killed 2 ships of the same cost and even make very good isk for someone whoâs really good at PVP. Also, it works out well for all levels, even fleets. And it doesnât even have to be LP, overflowing the market with navy stuff. It could be just direct bounties.
But this is just an idea. The main issue is that the main LP earning activity (plexing), is also bot-farmable and itâs the activity that defines warzone control. This needs to change. All Iâm saying is that the easiest way to do it is to remove the LP reward for it, and redirect it somewhere else, more PVP oriented. It can be the kills, it can be another activity but it needs to be one that doesnât affect warzone control, as we donât want farmers only there for isk to define the fate of the people who are there for PVP. People will still have reasons to plex and to get more systems for the positions, resources and station agents, but the core of the FW battle wonât be abused by bots.
Right back at you you stupid ape
He has trouble understanding this.
I value your point from the perspective of people that havenât done FW. And I agree. I also agree that having more people in FW could possibly balance out warzone control. But even then this doesnât stop pesky bots and farmers from interfering with it. Even if the standing and corporation stuff was changed, soon after youâd done some PVP there youâd realize that youâd have to spend your time doing other stuff to actually be able to buy ships for PVP, at least for the months that those farmers are busy farming on the other side, until the market prices drop to the point where itâs more profitable for them to switch sides. Then it becomes unfair for the other faction, no-one of them wants to log in and fight and it becomes boring and pointless. Attracting more people to FW isnât only addressing the standing issues. Itâs also about making the system more robust and balanced.
Itâs black and white because PvP profitability and farming alts for profit go hand in hand. The real PvP profitability scale is much less binary, but both of those activities happen once the profitability gets above the same threshold:
PvP very profitable â Pvp little profitable â PvP not profitable nor unprofitable â PvP unprofitable â PvP very unprofitable
If youâre above the break-even point or people will farm alts.
If youâre below that break-even point, it means PvP is not profitable on average and therefore not a healthy basis to draw players to that activity.
This is why you need another source of income for players to draw players to that activity even if no one else is willing to go there; thatâs why you need an attractive PvE activity to create a healty player basis in those systems.
I completely agree with that. The system should be robust and balanced.
But youâre going at it the wrong way.
Removing non-PvP rewards for participating in FW means players can only participate when other players are also participating in PvP. That either means people on average make money in PvP (which leads to people farming alts) or means people on average lose money, which means the players who lose the most will move elsewhere until thereâs nobody left to kill in PvP. Neither scenario is healthy.
PvP by itself simply cannot be the basis for a healthy ecosystem, you need at least a non-PvP activity to have people to attract the first PvPers.
I understand your frustration that farmers can have such a big impact with such little risk. But I think a much better way to solve that problem is to increase the risk of the farmers, not to remove farmers entirely.
The fundamental problem is that you can defensive cap in a ship that costs literally nothing. There is 0.0 investment required which is why botting is so rampant in FW.
Remove defensive capping as a mechanic.
Once upon a time players could light a cyno on a ship that costs literally nothing. These days you need to risk a Recon ship worth hundreds of millions of ISK for it or a one-time-use mobile cyno beacon worth tens of millions.
Not saying itâs a good idea to require a risk of that level, but what if there was a minimum risk requirement for FW mechanics as well?
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But at which point did I say that there should not be a non-PVP earning activity? FW missions are still there, also suggested another activity that earns isk. Also, nothing wrong with people farming those. My point is that whatever activity that is, it shouldnât contest the system to the point where a corp/fleet can just go there, siege it and capture it.
My bad, my experience with FW is pretty low. I didnât know FW missions exist.
My point still stands, you need attractive non-PvP options in order to have PvP. Be very careful with removing LP rewards for the non-PvP activities.
Then you need a different mechanic to be able to de-contest a system. I feel that CCP would not be very keen on making changes that require too many lines of code and testing⌠Removing lp from complexes and tweaking the rewards for kills is easy. FW missions can be the go-to for non-PVP activity, within the FW framework. Ideally introduce another activity.
The other way around it would be to keep plexes as is, but create a different mechanic for contesting the system that doesnât instantly earn LP, or is easy for bots to farm. But that would require too many changes and something I donât see the devs doing anytime soon.