Fanfest 2022 - Skill Training/Attributes removal

What exactly is being changed?

I don’t think they’re removing skills or passive training. How I think it’s going to work is that instead of training specific skills, we will accumulate unalocated SP to later allocate wherever we want. That being said, it does look like they are completely removing attributes. Presumably, everyone will now train at the maximum rate possible (not counting learning implants and boosters).

So, to be clear, I believe that the leveling system will remain mostly intact. We’re keeping passive training, the ability to train any skill, and slow progression.

@CCP_Nomad

I know it’s a wall of text, but I actually have constructive feedback… and won’t be asking for any devs to resign. :stuck_out_tongue:

Why I Liked Attributes

Now, as for feedback on this…

I personally advocated to keep the attribute system. It is complex, but you can chose how much effort and planning you put into it, with the rewards scaling accordingly. This resulted in me getting a skill point advantage over other players because I was willing to put in more thought and effort into it than the average player would. And, quite honestly, I like doing stuff like this. It was a similar experience to theory crafting -which is not unlike solving a puzzle. So, it was fun to figure out, and I was rewarded with faster training and an advantage over my peers.

The Case for Removing Attributes

Some people argued for getting rid of attributes because it was needlessly complex, and because getting rid of it would prevent newbros from fubaring their characters. I proposed giving newbros the ability to reset their attributes back to the default remap, but it looks like that didn’t go anywhere. Regardless, CCP said that they wanted to lower the learning curve for newbros -which this does. Unfortunately, it also lowers the skill ceiling, which was something that CCP said they wanted to preserve. So, as is often the case, it is a design decision with tradeoffs. I won’t say that it’s bad, or that CCP shouldn’t do it… only that I personally don’t like it.

What will the universal training rate be?

Of course, now I’m wondering what the training rate will be. It was proposed that everyone train skills at the maximum rate, but I don’t think we’ve gotten confirmation on that yet. What I can say, however, is that if CCP doesn’t give everyone the maximum training rate, it’s going to upset the players whose training rates end up suffering as a result.

Newbro Training Bonus

I’m not married to any hard numbers, but I don’t think it’s a terrible idea to give newbros a training rate bonus.

  • It helps them play catch up with older players
  • It helps offset newbro perceptions that they are forever behind the vets
  • It will help to offset how painfully slow progression feels when starting out and you can’t fly anything
  • It will induce FOMO and incentivize them to go omega and take advantage of the double bonus while they can

Unallocated SP and the Consequences for Newbros

Hording unallocated SP makes it far easier to adapt to changes, and I have long been advocating that players save unallocated SP so that they can more easily pivot to chase new strats and opportunities when the need/opportunity arises. It’s a good strat for maximizing wallet size, minimizing frustration at nerfs, and for flying new toys as soon as they come out… however, I adamantly assert that changing completely to unallocated SP will have consequences for many gamers -especially newbros.

Now, I have no doubt that this will be a controversial take. After all, many a youtube commentator has criticized RPG’s for forcing players to make a ton decisions (that they don’t fully understand and that can have long lasting consequences) at character creation. And Eve does the same thing, right? New players don’t know what they should train; so why should we be forcing them to make choices that they might regret later?

Well, I know for a fact that many players regret training certain things because they found they didn’t like the ship, play style, or activity associated with it. However, this isn’t going to change that. They will still need to allocate the points and try it out before they can decide whether they like it or not. So, a better way to deal with this (assuming you don’t microtransaction players to death), would be through expert systems. For example, if CCP seeded the in-game market with expert systems, it would allow players to try out different roles/ships before committing.

Moreover, this change will have other consequences. The current system may seem stupid on the surface, but this “stupidity” has some advantageous side effects:

  • It encourages players to think about their goals in game where players have to make their own goals
  • It encourages players to research ships and activities in a game with a ton of toys and activities
  • It increases social interaction in an MMO by encouraging players to ask vets what they should train
  • It forces players to make a choice, which avoids the problem of analysis paralysis.
  • It forces players to make a choice, which avoids many players’ tendency to save Skill Points and limited use items and spells for when “they absolutely need it.”

Yeah, and for those that aren’t aware, a lot of players (myself included) feel compelled to save limited resources for when they need it… and then frequently never use it. Of course, I’m sure that some players will find a good balance between spending SP on cool stuff and saving some for a rainy day, but this change will incentivize a certain type of player to willingly lock themselves out of toys and activities because they want to save their SP for when they “need it”.

Anyway, I still haven’t watched all the fanfest stuff, so I don’t know if CCP has discussed their reasoning for the change. However, I think there will be negative consequences, and that there are probably better ways to solve the problems caused by the way the system works now.

And no, I’m not trying to use newbros as a shield here. In fact, quite the opposite. I love unallocated SP, because it allows me to rapidly pivot to chase new strats and opportunities. And I will not only save unallocated SP, but have also done things like intentionally trained mining skills so that I could get the refunded SP when they were changed. So, I am actually arguing against my own interests here.

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I cant wait to extract sp directly from a pool of unallocated sp. Or will I have to allocate them to some dummy skill first then extract. Personally character development through the skilltree is one of my favorite aspects of the game. Slippery slope indeed.

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I love the skill tree. Enjoy all the skills and the planning involved.
I hate the skill queue.
Go out of town for a week and come home to realize you forgot to queue up.
Frustrated at the loss of a weeks skill points.
OR…
Go out of town for a week and come home excited at a weeks worth of skill points accumulated and ready to apply to new skills.

I want Eve to be hard core. I’m here for the permanent loss and consequences. I also want to see 35,000 people online again.

We don’t need to continue bad systems just because we had to deal with those bad systems when we were new.

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For real though, yes, this will solve that problem. However, I maintain that it will have unintended consequences that might actually hurt player retention. But, I guess we’re going to find out.

Also, I’ve heard of guys getting SP reimbursements when that’s happened to them. So, if it happens to you again before the switch, file a support ticket.

Would never have even occurred to me to file a support ticket for that.
The fault was mine, I took the loss.

There needs to be pain in Eve. I think that to attract more of todays MMO players to our sandbox we need less pain. Just not so much less that Eve becomes less.

Balancing that will be hard.

Well written and well thought out. I don’t agree on all the points but it’s definitely something for CCP to consider.

Personally I do agree that throwing out attributes would be a poor choice on CCP’s part, depending how it’s done. EVE already has far too few ways to personalize your character. It’s been said many times over the years that EVE players are more likely to identify with their ships than their pilots (which leads to outsized reactions when the ship is lost).

EVE also has (IMO), too few ‘reward’ systems and too few resource-sinks to allow for growth and choices many players need to stay invested in a game.

It would be more interesting to replace attributes with a richer system. Have different factions and schools start with slightly different allocations (I know this is going back on some of the changes CCP made to character creation - I didn’t think those choices were wise either). Give players X points to allocate as they will, but with a better set of tooltips or guide on what those choices mean.

Then add advancement of attributes as something that can be gained later in the game, through boosters, implants, and various rewards that can be earned through gameplay. There could even be earnable, permanent boosts for completing various levels of gameplay for various factions or entities.

Then make remaps a procedure you can pay for at certain locations (again, possibly tied to having earned that option through gameplay, or making it payable in different prices/currencies depending what you’ve unlocked).

That way you have player progression, you have earnable goals, you have more reasons for players to interact with various factions or systems. You have more resource sinking and services for CCP to sell. And you remove the entire “you can fubar your character” by making remaps more available.

CCP needs to work on giving players more options, more richness, and more reasons to play, rather than continuing down the road of “uh, game design and coding is hard, so we’re just going to keep removing things until we have a nice simple game everybody likes”.

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I enjoy the planning and optimization that goes into skill planning and will be disappointed if it were replaced by everyone getting a fixed daily amount of unallocated SP.

That said, I do see how attributes penalize training a skill that you aren’t mapped for, which may not be an issue for veterans (who already have a lot of useful and fun skills unlocked and can make year-long queues of specialist skills) but is harsh for newbies who are required to train the basics in all sorts of skills in their first months which will require all attributes.

My recommendation: keep the skill planning, keep the learning implants, but remove remaps and give everyone the same high and balanced attributes. Or alternatively give newbies an attribute boost for the first months.

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All very interesting. What works for one person doesn’t work for another etc.

I have hoarder tendencies but certainly not when it comes to skill points. So for someone with my personality flaws I can see issues with daily unallocated skill points depending on how it’s implemented.

For example I assume that I can allocate in much the same way as now. I.e for a nine day skill I can allocate my points daily and the counter goes down. That would be ok. Although I’d still find it difficult to stick to a plan because I’d want instant gratification. I.e I’d possibly spend daily skill points on a skill I don’t need because it completes the skill as opposed to sticking to what I should be spending them on.

Even worse if I can’t allocate the points to a skill untill I have enough to unlock it. Because I’d never be able to have 20 days of skill points without spending them.

I know this sounds batsh*t crazy. But I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in having these issues.

As it is now I set a skill queue and forget. And just open the skill queue to spend points when I get them…… on the skill that’s training. Otherwise I’d continually tinker.

Not sure this adds much to the discussion other than exposing my nuttiness but never mind

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But…but…you can’t just PAY to win!!! Noooooo!

Panic!! Panic!! Where’s my comfort roach.

We already are the cash cow. Duh.

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Lightbulb goes on in my head. :dizzy_face:.

Without skilling implants who cares if my main get’s podded. I don’t need to clone jump before going on NPSI suicide roams.

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I want the best of both worlds. If I have skills in the queue train those, if I don’t the points go to unallocated. If Everything goes to unallocated it’s more clicking to assign them than the skills training as quened

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If SP turns into entirely FOMO just to boost log-in numbers deceitfully than I will be playing NOMO.

Do it CCP. I dare you.

You are the innocent noob about to make his first jump, unknowingly, into lowsec on a courier contract you found to be quite lucrative (2.5 Million ISK :joy: :joy: :joy:).

On the other side is lowsec. There waits a gatecamp of veteran players, THE players who pay YOUR bills, that put food on YOUR table.

We have Battleships fit with smart bombs. Interceptors with double webs and double scrams, rigged to lock you in less time than NFTs were cool. We have ECMs, just because. We have 5 Falcons with cynos ready to assemble the old-guard and their titans and super carriers, ready to put aside petty differences in order to finally send a resounding message to CCP.

Jump… I dare you.

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…or let new characters remap once or twice a week for the first 12 months, so when they “screw up”, they can remap quickly, while learning how the game works and what kind of thing they might like in the future.

I really miss the days when I was flying my Merlin from The Citadel to Amarr, only to be stopped in my tracks because “the capacitor is empty…” (please they in the place you dropped out of warp and wait for your capacitor to regenerate enough, so it can initiate the final warp flight to the next gate.)

New Eden used to be soooo very huge. (Nostalgia sets in…)

Even tough unrelated to skill training, I also miss the time when we had so many fewer ships available to us and your fitting was so much more important.
From the few ships we had, you decided what ship you liked, and you fit it for the next purpose.

The fittings would be ridiculed today, but they will have made sense back then.

Back in early 2007, my corp mates did not believe that a battleship would be able to mine at least close enough to the lowest ranking mining barges that just entered the game, until I proved them wrong.

And have to consider that most of the information we have available to us right now, today, is “slightly” more than what it was, so most of the time, you were on your own, even with company.

Back to topic.

I remember having had that bad feeling about all those skills, I had to train. Since I started in late 2006, basically “everyone” would have had at least a 2-year long head-start.

…skipping 4 years into the future from 2006 to 2010- that “gap”, that I used to perceive became the gap, that all of my corp mates, which had a 2-year long head start, were falling behind to me - lol.

Yes, I heard, what my corp mates advised me to train early, but since I can read, I made a few “adjustments” of my own, and then I was pretty much the one (newbie) corp member with 50-100% more overall skill points than they had.

I will miss those “adjustments”.

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No more rhyming, and I mean it!

What gate is this? I went through Tama the other day and didn’t see THAT.

I enjoyed seeing a skill being trained. If it’s just down to right-click “learn” now after having allocated enough SP, that’s boring af. Plus making a long queue knowing I’d be learning X and Y over course time was nice to see for the planning brain.

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Exactly!

I really really hope they do keep the training queue.

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So, implants, whats happening to those, because no attributes means implants don’t do anything at all and they are going to lose a lot of their value, the pirate implants will be hurt a lot

The queue won’t really mean anything if you’re having to manually allocate SP to skills, what you’re looking for is called a skill plan