For The old Guys Out there, I mean toons over 10 years old

CCP don’t seem to grasp the paradox that if you dumb the game down so that 1 week old noobs have an easy time, the very same 1 week old noobs that do survive end up leaving after a few months because there is not enough risk or challenge.


I started in 2011, right after the Incarna release. The community was in turmoil over “ccp wasting resources on something stupid like walking in stations”. It was outraged about monocles. It was … interesting as a newcomer. Since then we have moved from high point to high point as well as from crisis to crisis. Nothing new.

CCP! you say ?

I liked the approach of ccp Soundwave. Some hated it.
I didn’t like the approach of ccp Seagull. Some acclaimed her.
I think the current approach with the scarcity thing, redistribution, “for the good of the economy”, and changes to t1 bs, faction ships and caps/supers industry are simply misguided and led to an exodus.
I see that the last expansion, about FW, pushed up the PCU - it addressed the wishes of people interested in that playstyle.

It’s the normal ebb and flow, in my opinion, except for the scarcity related stuff. I don’t see the economy “improve” from a player’s perspective. I don’t see the cap/supers proliferation going anywhere, as predicted despite all the scarcity measures (nor does it need to, simply inject a counter to caps/supers and be happy for the next two decades). If anything, supers etc are now anchored in concrete in the largest and richest groups - it actually made the situation worse (as predicted).

Eve was, and most likely still is (I can’t wipe the experience of years) a game that promises the player: “If you can imagine it, you can do it !”. So, asking “old guys of 10 years piloting or more” if the game can be great again, after trying out a lot of the things New Eden allows to do, that is a pre-loaded question. Of course veterans won’t have the same level of excitement and curiosity as when they started. In that sense, Eve can never be better than the personal, early years. But we still play, we still love it, and we’ve done, tried and failed many things. But forgive (some of) us for being bitter, many of us have never seen a sight that didn’t look better looking back, as the song says.

The players too, I say.

From my perspective CCP creates tools and elements for us to be creative with. Nothing more. Efforts like the triglavian invasion were great, but temporary. It’s not CCP’s job to “entertain” us with stories. This is a sandbox, it does not need an injection of stories: WE, the players, create the stories, find novel ways to use the tools and elements to compete with each other on many levels. Therefore It is also WE who can make the game greater. It’s our imagination and resolve that makes the difference for personal enjoyment. That’s not even mentioning the fact that CCP is not of a size to provide “new content” (pve) on a continuous basis - it is already swamped in maintaining and fixing what exists.

The corollary, of expecting CCP to keep the sandbox free from litter, is expecting the players to add positively to the experience. While CCP acts as overall guardian, players are the de facto guardians of what happens in New Eden “feet on the ground”. A pet peeve of mine is “renter space”, which in my opinion, should constantly be under heavy challenge by those with the resources. For most of my years in Eve there was talk of the blue donut - which never existed but we did come close at one time. Large blocks are a reality. They do not prevent new blocks from coming into existence - most are wise enough to recognize that necessity.

As the more diverse landscape (hence more interesting from a game play perspective and thus retention) is situated in the non-hisec parts of space, I would consider it part of our (gamers’) responsibility to have a constant flux of players and groups (corp, alliance, coalition) in those zones, by showing some good judgment on what is necessary for the health of the game. It’s not our task to break dreams, we need a bit more dreaming and opportunity for growth for the newer players, in the zones we, veterans, dwell in. We have to feed new players’ passion - and tell CCP when they’re doing anything that dampens it (like nerfing some of the more daring and creative player vs player challenges, or do some weird alterations to industry) … And if new players don’t have the stomach or imagination to play like we do or used to, well then the game will truly die.


I would be happy if the new CCP generation would embrace that more, and that we see more changes in that spirit in the future. IMO CCP has partly left that path with their micro-design of new features, e.g. detailed ship-allow lists, number of players gate restrictions, multibox-optimal “group” PvE, and instanced content.

Fortunately, a lot of the stuff outside the “official” career paths is still there to let newbies look behind the curtain, ninja looting/salvaging/mining, MTU hunting, suspect baiting, collecting lost drones, clone soldier hunt, market manipulation, etc. Becoming a miner or null-bloc F1 pusher is no fate. :wink:


That’s the kind of statistical nonsense that CCP seems to celebrate.

The PCU is not up. It’s down. It’s not even recovered from where it was in January 2022. It was down then, it’s down more now, and it hasn’t gone “up”. It has never gotten close to where it was in April 2021, and it was “down” then. It was down then, it’s down more now, and it hasn’t gone “up”.


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Don’t let your anger blind you.


It didn’t push the PCU up to 2021 or 2014 levels. But it did bring back some. That’s a positive.


Don’t let your ignorance blind you.

It’s UP since they introduced the FW changes. There’s no denying it, princess Aiko.

That does not mean the game is where it should be in terms of PCU. I agree it’s not enough…

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Even a dead cat will bounce when it hits the bottom.


It’s up, nobody can deny that!


FW combat is now about how best to push the enemy farmer out of the plex when you warp in, without actually risking a battle yourself so you can farm the sweet LP yourself.

Then you wait for a battlefield to pop up so you can have maybe have a chance to be an F1 monkey, but at least you get to do the worlds most boring PvE in the meantime while you wait for the inevitable no-show.

Then one day ask „all for what“ and folks just stop logging in anymore.

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Skill injectors allowing day one rorq and super pilots ruined EvE, but made CCP a lot of money. You can’t un-jump that shark.


New players are new and inexperienced.

Train them.
Prey on them.

Or in your case - do both.

–Gadget knows we were all new once

With all due respect, this is exactly the narrative pushed by engorged null-sec coalitions (like yours!) so that their members have a steady stream of smaller, weaker groups to feed them kills in between their farming sessions, which helps with participation/retention rates, and ensures that the pyramid scheme continues optimal operation.

Let’s not pretend that success in null-sec conflicts is a function of anything other than raw numerical superiority; a truth that heavily-invested null-sec tycoons and their high-sec carebear shills try to sweep under the rug with their imperatives of going to null-sec for PvP content “because that’s where the REAL PvPers live!” Because most of us are informed enough to know what actually happens when a 4-man gang shows up to one of your systems: it patiently waits for 2 hours while a 150-member capital-backed defense fleet is assembled, destroyed without ever being able to fire a shot because of the 33 Kitsunes on the field, and then told to “git gud, [slur]s” in local by a bunch of room-temperature-IQ krabs who no longer even know how to warp themselves to a gate after years of having the FC do it for them with contemporary fleet management mechanics.

Maybe you mean well by writing something like that, perhaps as an expression of an ideal more than anything else, but you know what they say: the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


Until the newbro realizes that the couple folks left that are successful at doing this as an actual in game CAREER all built their fortunes playing with remote support and furthermore were recruited and trained by the vets of their day. These are no longer options for a new bro as there is no longer any support or team play allowed for suspects and subsequently the ~10 guys left who REALLY know how to do it (as an ig career) have no reason to recruit or train a newbro.

Furthermore, why would anyone join a M. Multiplayer O. and choose the profession where they cannot play with friends lol.

With equal respect, that does not make the narrative wrong. A pvp sandbox needs fights, and in the case of New Eden, it needs ways to give shelter to those supporting those fights (via sov mechanics, structures, SRP, intel, stealth as in wormholes, what have you). That’s the way CCP designed it for us lab rats: create a universe with different layers of danger, and see how things evolve. It turns out, not unexpectedly, that people organize themselves, and the more so with increased risk, wealth and challenge from pvp. I don’t even think that Eve is unique in that aspect. Any game I’ve played that had some level of “sov” (for want of a better word), had some level of organization within player groups.

However! A game that offers the liberty to carve out a piece of New Eden and call it “home” for a group has to make sure that this liberty stays on offer. That is what I was writing. That is why I think renter space is anything but desirable, as one example, and where we players have to exercise good guardianship. Are new groups “tolerated” because they become better targets, as you state ? Probably and for good reason, because conflict is the lifeblood of a very big part of the game, being a pvp game. And I did say that I think we, players in those conflicts, have to give others a chance to grow so they can enter those conflicts. Brave Newbies, as the first example to come to my mind, demonstrated it to perfection (and no, they are not allies of the group I’m with, but there is plenty of mutual respect - like in any kind of sport…).

Often, but not always. Let the last WWB2 be testament to that, the Imperium + allies against the rest of the game, far outnumbered. Smarter FC’s, better trained pilots, more disciplined groups, better intel etc are not size related, but they can and do sometimes make the difference on the battle field, subcaps chasing off super fleets, etc.

There is a very active part of e.g. nullsec populations eager to fight. I can tell you exactly what will happen if any non-blue hangs around: there will be some sniffing around, assessing the danger, getting intel, fits, known droppers/cynos/scouts. There probably will be some “poking the beast” (there’s mavericks in any group, with lots of hubris), only to lose ships. If there is a small defense fleet on duty it will probably initiate a fight, if not then there will be an influx of individuals trying their luck in “poking the beast” and scoring a kill. However, if something larger is suspected to wait on the other side, then bigger fleets with doctrines will be deployed. If you were a true 4-man team, I question the decision to “wait for 2 hrs” and staying in a system. It’s bound to become quite suspicious, moving from “trespasser” to “threat” as time passes (no one stays in an enemy system without having backup normally). If that happens to be within any region actively occupied by a group possessing supers/titan pilots, yeah, they have that umbrella. So do their real ingame opponents. Perhaps you were just unlucky, and were in the path of a fleet move, being a target of opportunity for trigger happy, bored pilots. Of course, if your small gang penetrates a region that has a major player group there, there are going to be gleeful shouts of “yay, something to shoot at”, and your small gang will either die or flee.

I’m not guilty of even covertly suggesting that. It’s a forum warrior’s weapon. I don’t know what a real pvp’er is - I guess anyone willing to undock and try to kill another ship, regardless of style, solo or in group.

Some people don’t know how to behave. In any game. That’s not an Eve “thing”. That losses are real and sting more, that’s an Eve “thing”. Add to that the psychology of the battle field. It’s always fun to make the opposition lose its cool - it gives a clear advantage, lures them into making mistakes. Nothing new.

You should be on our comms. The percentage of real fleet warps in all our warps is low by comparison. There are many risks with fleet warps, and good FC’s know them. Instead they train their pilots to not be dependent on fleet warps. Honest truth. “Did he say jump?” is not even a joke in some fleets. And for the risky fleets, the discipline is even higher, and the piloting skills involved as well. The FC’s I fly with don’t act like they wield a big club they can swing around to obliterate the enemy. Every pilot in the fleet has a level of responsibility that goes beyond “do as you’re told”. It includes “don’t stop thinking about what you are doing!”.

Perhaps it is. Perhaps against better judgement, expecting the top guys in all major blocks to do the right thing for the game, and not so much for a niche, privileged group. But there are at least a few major content creators who do have that same view.

Of course, even with the best of intentions there is no guarantee that the game stands the test of time. Eve is demanding, some play styles are very demanding. Newer generations of players may not be interested in that kind of game as we were. We veterans can soften the learning curve, and we can get people involved faster by shortening some of the path. But only if they are willing to learn, accepting the need to learn, and actually continue playing. I don’t know how the newer generations look upon this game. But I don’t think people fundamentally change either: the fighters will always find a spot here to grow and thrive, in the way they imagine it. If both CCP and we don’t do silly things, there’s no reason to not have a third or fourth decade of Eve.


I don’t think EVE ever could enter another 2014 style golden age, and I don’t think CCP can do anything about it. The game is figured out, now. For anything in the game, there’s an Eve Uni page and a dude in rookie chat willing to tell you how it works. Alliances are extremely organized and efficient, and if you were to tear all of the infrastructure down, the knowledge would persist, and they would rebuild in an instant.

I don’t think they can make the game great again in the way people reminisce about it, because there’s nothing they can do about that short of releasing a new game and hoping lightning strikes twice, which we all know is about as unlikely as a carebear in spectre fleet. I don’t think they can make the bittervets not bitter anymore, because those guys are stubborn and will hate this game no matter what.

I do think, however, that CCP does good things on a semi regular basis. If their changes start skewing more to the acclaimed stuff, and if they address legacy content a little more, all that fun stuff, then yeah. They can make a lot of people happy, and they can probably make a serious amount of legacy players come back.

Call me an optimist, but I never stopped thinking this is a great game, despite the many problems. It certainly isn’t as crazy as it was, either, but IMO, CCP’s downfall is overstated. They’ve fallen from grace, sure, but I don’t think they’ve fallen as far as people make them out to have. There’s a lot of good within their reach, and I think hope is far from lost. We’ve got a third decade to see through, after all.


Only, that was also true in 2014 and before then. There was the Evelopedia (official website of CCP) meticulously keeping track of all mechanics, descriptions, properties, covering all subjects (and tbh, sometimes even superior to what is currently available in the wiki because they had access to the real information). Alliances and coalitions were equally well organized, perhaps with a different set of tools to use in the sandbox. Players had already figured out optimal solutions for the then game’s challenges (that never took years, ever). And all that up-to-date knowledge was shared, no one was left behind, same as now.

I’ve asked this before in other threads, in the vain hope that someone from CCP will give the answer: what do they think was the reason for the relatively large influx of players in the 2010-2013 period. Since they are not able to repeat that “success”, if one can call it that, I guess they don’t know or a changing landscape prevents it from happening again.



Do I think that CCP can make the game great again ?

Oh boy…

There is to debate on so many variables here, but ultimately I think it’s a question of $ . A question of how much are they willing to invest into the game. They said they want to make Eve Forever for us, which would imply they are willing to do so, but on the other hand they sold to PA not so long ago…
For certain at first they would need to upgrade their current hardware , you don’t want the game to kick people from the server that want to take part in a fight. It is true that historically we have pushed the servers to the limit each time, but this obviously does not mean they should stop upgrading.
Secondly is the development team, and good talented developers don’t come cheap .

Also there are the players, because this cannot happen without them , it’s not entirely up to CCP… and here I am going to upset a lot of individuals , but I don’t care and I’ll say what I have to say .
We now have a new generation of Eve players, a generation that generally lacks initiate and imagination , the generation “hold my hand”, “skill injector”, “post anime and use the word ret… and n… because we don’t have any other in our vocabulary because we haven’t read any book for maybe except a comic book”… whatever you want to call it generation.
This is not a generalization, but sadly a vast portion is as I described it. But do you know what’s more sad ? CCP caring to them , because it is simply good business . The instant gratification generation is a gold mine for CCP, which is why today we have Eve with the face of a Disney Land themed park…

It’s a vicious circle and I think they are starting to lose balance.

The Eve that I knew from more than 10 years ago is simply gone ! The players that I knew, the Devs we had… all is gone ! I came back like most did in 2020 - when COVID started - thinking I would find the same game, lying to myself that I would find the same game. I guess I haven’t learned to let go…

I don’t know if they are going to “make Eve great again”, but I have seen the direction in which they want to push it, and I can tell you for sure that in a few years it’s going to be unrecognizable.

Wow, crazy person on the internet claims racist “slang” originated with the current generation…


:rofl: right

Absolute nonsense. The best players in the game are lowsec frigate pilots, wormhole Herons, and Highsec gankers, not drooling carebear titans.