Force Auxiliary Balance Proposal - Round 2


(NotTheSmartestCookie) #61

This. So much this.

(S'totan) #62

Hmmmm. Cost as a limiting factor, where have i heard this not work before?
Oh yeah!

The Goon will crank these out like they are nothing and you will only have industrial juggernaughts with access to impossibly OP repping power.

(Grayclay) #63

That is fair, and for what it’s worth, I don’t think tweaking cost should ever really be a main balancing factor in EVE. It’s clearly very easy for groups like Goons to just overproduce whatever tweaks CCP makes, at the limitation of every other group, so increasing cost just nerfs everyone but Goons such as S’totan said. Not only that, but Titans were balanced by cost when they were released, and today one nerd in a basement can crank out a few Titans a month with enough Rorqs.

Balance needs to come from ship mechanics; ignore the cost of FAX’s by neutering the N+1 effect you mentioned.

(Rovinia) #64

Perhaps reduce local rep’s by some % (only for the FAX) to make them a little less tanky in smaller engagements? Or why was that taken out from the previous iteration?

(Katarack Kitsumaru) #65

It’s not so much that people think that increasing cost will reduce proliferation of the hull. The issue with the cost is that two entities cannot trade dreads and FAX’s in a fight at anything close to an efficient rate. Currently the hull is just too good at what it does to cost what it does. 1 FAX provides more value per isk fielded than the hulls required to counter them. Proliferation aside, it should be closer to even

(Legal Affairs) #66

I disagree vehemently. Would you apply this logic to subcap logistics? Two scimi in a small roam fleet is going to very dramatically improve the fleet’s tank, and either require that a response bring a lot more numbers or equal logistics. That is the entire point of the logistics in this game. A ship with limited use and comparatively high cost that dramatically improves the survivability of your fleet.

I reiterate that proponents of these changes are only doing so out of self-service. They would prefer battles, even with logistics, to be short and easily won by simple DPS n+1. The BEST part of this game is the variety in fleet rolls (ECM, logi, DPS, scout, dicter, etc. etc.)

Just stop it. This is stupid and needs to be rethought at once.

(Katarack Kitsumaru) #67

A lot of people would say that the current meta in large scale conflict is just FAX n+1 rather than DPS. If it’s going to be an n+1 meta it may as well be one where more things blow up

(Legal Affairs) #68

Again, I disagree. Having flown a titan at UALX, the meta is everything n+1, which is how it should be. FAX n+1 just leads to a stalemate, there must be a balance between DPS and logistics, which alliances have already achieved.

(Marisa Storm) #69

Seems like a decent idea but I worry it affects Shield fax’s more than armor ones (especially the Lif). If boosters are less effective, we’ll just fit more cap boosters. Unfortunately that favors the armor FAXs. Having flown all of them, the apostle and ninazu already vastly outperform the Lif, in that they can have a superior tank and more cap injection potential (and really at the end of the day, it’s all about cap injecting)
I might suggest looking at changing (lowering) the bonuses on the Triage Module rather than the ship itself. It seems like the general issue is self-rep ability and outgoing reps, those are two things that really are problematic because of triage, not so much the ship.

(Cali Sazabi) #70

I would love to see a capital fight of 1k+ ppl with out any tidye and then see how strong a Fax really is…bc i really dont think their that strong

(Legal Affairs) #71

You’ve touched a point here I think is lost on many people. Outside TiDi, FAXes require much skill to operate and are not that effective especially against targeted volleys. Unless the two groups are very evenly matched, deaths will start occurring very quickly.

(elitatwo) #72

Cost as in built material increase, not isk.

(Grayclay) #73

You realize that is the same thing, right? You can buy materials with isk.

(elitatwo) #74

You realize, you only picked one of the many things I said, right?

I also said, the time to build one fax machine should be increased to 12 weeks.

(Grayclay) #75

Ok, then [Insert mega bloc here] starts 50 more SP farm indy alts and completely negates the lengthened build time by building more at once.


(elitatwo) #76

Cheat stix need to be removed.

(Luscius Uta) #77

A lot of people suggested sig-based reps, but did anybody thought about the case when the subcap target activates MWD to receive better reps?

(Xelios) #78

The previous proposal had a duration increase to remote reps like this one does, but also a cap need increase to go with it. Is this still the case here or has the cap need increase been left out this time? If so, why? Particularly when one of the stated goals is to “increase their vulnerability to capacitor warfare.”

Overall these changes won’t improve things much in the small gang and wormhole settings, but they’re a start. Multiple cap injector fits are still going to allow FAX to tank for 40+ minutes while under neuts. FAX are still going to be dropped into small gang situations, putting out the same reps as 4 or 5 logi cruisers working together at the cost of a single dude’s alt.

The CASB change is going to affect other things like Rorqs, Phoenixes and the triple ASB wormhole Nag that can tank like 25k DPS even while neuted out completely. That’s probably a good side effect to be honest. But I really feel capital cap injectors need to be limited in a similar fashion, given that they’re normally balanced by the cargo hold required for the charges, which is totally irrelevant for most capitals.

Thanks for doing something about this finally. Like I said, it’s a start.

(Xelios) #79

They’re nothing like subcap logi in their current form. Remove the ewar resistance bonuses from triage and limit them to carrying ~5 minutes worth of cap charges total, then maybe we can start applying the same logic to them.

I think it’s ironic you complain about people who only want to win battles with DPS+1 when DPS+1 is literally the only weakness a FAX has. ECM, sensor damps, neuts, booshers, webs, paints etc are all totally useless against them while serving as typical counters to subcap logi.

(Carn Dallocort) #80

Love it… large coalition fights show FAX is OP in tidi, CCP nerfs FAX and all other caps using CASB’s in one swoop.

I’m guessing this will have a much greater impact on the smaller gangs/alliances than the large power blocks? CCP just lazy coding as usual.