Here’s the problem. I hear wormholers with actual experience and knowledge saying diametrically opposed things. Some say “yeah, we’re the ones making all the isk” and others say “no, that’s just day tripping roach groups.” So, who, exactly, are we supposed to believe? I look at the data, and I see 600 billion isk a day being generated in wormholes, which is by far the least dense space in the game. Are we really supposed to believe that wormholers with actual experience and knowledge can’t make that kind of money, but only random day tripping nullsec filament gangs can?
The vast majority of that income is generated by few roach groups. Their income is upwards of 300 billion isk per week, just for 1 multiboxer. A good chunk of the income IS made by people actually living and participating in wormhole ecosystem obviously, you’d have to be pretty stupid to not take advantage of it, but what we’re asking for is not the nerf of reward but increase of risk which has been coroded away to nonexistence update after update. Please take a minute to talk to leaderships of notable wormhole groups if you dont think my opinion matters. We are asking for more risk that facilitates player interaction, not random gimmicky bs that not only completely kills any possibility of daily content but also kills any big events like large scale evictions
I like the idea of more risk, but when I see things here like “no more frig holes” that’s not exactly asking for more risk. But hey - if you guys have anything on paper I can give CCP, pass it on.
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Please explain how the removal of frigate holes ‘increases risk’ in wormhole space, as I do not quite follow.
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I have already explained it in this very thread my friend, you can go and read it
to add on that, frigholes kill the content there may be in terms of krabs farming their hole and kill large scale evictions, which has happened multiple times in the past few months. So yes, their removal will increase the risk as it will add content back into the game
As is, frigholes do not add risk because when they’re around nobody krabs. There are no players in space for this theoretical risk to apply to. If theres a room with toxic gas in it, but nobody enters the room when theres toxic gas, does this make it riskier for the people living in that house? No. This analogy applies well to WH space. The toxic gas is frigholes, the house is a room with all the things a player can do, and the people living in the house is the player.
Sure, if you could force people to krab in Jspace with frigholes open, they’d add risk, but if something’s existence just prevents krabbing altogether does this really add risk? If there’s a frighole, there aren’t krabs. If there isn’t a frighole, there can be krabs. When there’s no krabs in a hole, there’s no content. When there are krabs, there’s content waiting to be rolled into.
And this is the key point, rolling all your system’s holes creates an illusion of safety that isn’t quite true. While there are no entrances to your system right now, someone can rage roll into your system and kill you, or someone could be safelogged/cloaked and ambush you. When there’s a frighole and nobody’s krabbing, when either of these happen the result is no pvp (rage rollers rage roll for a new hole, safeloggers wait another day).
So in summary, removing frigholes would increase risk because it would get more people undocking, and there’s 0 risk to being docked but more than 0 risk to being undocked, therefore anything that forces people to dock up by definition reduces risk. You can see this at work extremely plainly in nullsec with the existence of local. When a neut enters local, krabs dock up and there’s no content.
“But wait, how are the neuts different from the frigholes in your analogy?” Good question. The answer is that in Jspace, you can have risk without frigholes. In nullsec, you can’t have risk with local (with the minor exception of awox spies, which are not the primary form of krab hunting in null, that being the tiny minority who don’t warp out fast enough). In Jspace, most content is generated from the means that are not analogous to awoxing blues.
TL;DR: Frigholes make everyone dock up, there can’t be risk if there’s nobody out in space. Removing frigholes = More people undocked = More content and risk
I’m sorry, but that argument doesn’t hold any water. It would be like saying “AFK cloaky camping reduces risk” or “blackout reduced risk” because all the krabs docked up. They dock up because of the increased risk - krabs wouldn’t be docked up if these actually reduced risk.
I think it’s fair to argue that it reduces content, and there may be a case for that. But to say it reduces risk is to stretch the idea of what causes risk into an absurdity.
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Man, there’s some risk-averse krabs in this thread.
I know a dude who will freely boat his marauders through two hostile home holes to get to a decent C5.
Another dude I know will actively look for large groups’ krabholes to rat in, specifically as an “f you” to the blue wormdonut.
And here are a number of high class residents stating that they will log off the entire of eve if a frig hole so much as shows its face in your home. Heaven forfend that 48h shall pass without fresh billions in blue loot.
J-tags please. I have a present for you!
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Not free. There’s a lot of working on it. timers, sov, defence fleets, building, deploying Indy stuff, etc.
Not everyone docks up for frigholes. Only the more risk adverse krabs do this. The groups that (until recently) made the most blue loot per week would rat with open full mass holes, let alone frigate sized ones, as a means to save time. People are welcome to not farm with frigholes in their system, but this means they make less money overall (even including losses prevented), and that’s good.
Now frig holes ARE some ■■■■■■■■ for evictions, but whiney krabs alone do not deserve to see them removed 
You’re all morons, and no self-respecting wormholer bothers to post here.
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groups set up to make isk in WH are making it hand over fist. however a lot of groups in WH aren’t focused on making as much isk as possible. Its either a secondary or not a concern at all. groups that are small or only have it as a secondary concern tend to be the ones who have members complaining about how hard it is to make isk in WH. Problem is making it easier for them makes it exponentially easier for the larger dedicated groups. Its the same problem you have across eve.
Structures exaggerated this issue. It became easier for massive groups to make isk and further solidify holds on holes. While making WH far riskier for small corps. you can no longer just live out of a POS and be largely ignored if you only had a hanger or two inside. Now at minimum there is over .5b reward for killing a structure but odds are you get several bill worth of assets attacking softer targets than a POS.
Ahem, have you seen my wormhole? lmao. I literally just solo live out of a large dickstar POS in a C5 farmhole. You absolutely can live out of just a pos. And given I’ve had that pos there for 4 months, with no ability to defend it, and ships floating in space, I think it’s reasonable to say such a setup will go ignored for atleast long enough to make a handsome profit. Now, it’s definitely not efficient or nice, but it’s 100% doable.
#DeleteCitadels
Okay… you can no longer practically live out of a pos.
Ccp should have just let pos structures continue to work other than moon mining. Rather than forcing citadels.
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I feel like the spirit of the post got lost in the debate about risk or no risk. The crux of the problem with frig holes is the exact same as AFK cloaky campers. It’s not about how it affects risk. It’s not even about the fact of them existing. It’s about there being no practical solution to the situation. AFK cloaky campers killed content because there was no realistic way to proactively deal with it and so when they occurred it caused everything to grind to a halt. Same can be said of frig holes.
The problem isn’t that they exist. They don’t need to be removed because of the potential that they kill content. In the same way that the MOB helps fix the AFK cloaky campers problem, there should be a practical way to deal with the frig holes.
I’m sure people better than I can come up with reasonable trade-offs but perhaps, removing the mass regen so they could eventually be dealt with in exchange for a higher polarization timer on them, or perhaps a 50 mil isk bomb, similar in cost to the MOB, that has to be anchored within 5km of the frig hole and after a 30 or whatever minute timer it detonates and removes the wormhole, but it only works on frig holes and it has to be defended in that time to prevent it from being blown up by attackers.
Perhaps the solution, like the cloaky campers, isn’t to remove the function entirely, but to merely trim out and/or change the part of the function that hampers content
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These scrub threads are hilarious. “CCPlease add game mechanics so that I can eliminate risks so that I can minmax grind isks.”
If you knew how to read obviously I’m not talking about risk. It’s simply a matter of content. But please, I want to hear your cope about AFK cloak campers. If they were such a gigantic risk that you needed to add a game mechanic, why not just keep a response fleet on standby at all times when they decided to show their face? Seems like a solution to the risk to me. Didn’t need to add a whole mechanic to fix it right? Stop being a scrub man.
If you knew how to read obviously I’m not talking about risk. It’s simply a matter of content. But please, I want to hear your cope about AFK cloak campers. If they were such a gigantic risk that you needed to add a game mechanic, why not just keep a response fleet on standby at all times when they decided to show their face? Seems like a solution to the risk to me. Didn’t need to add a whole mechanic to fix it right? Stop being a scrub man.
Keep talking.
An afk cloaky camper is a player making use of game mechanics that CCP never implemented a proportional counter for. Until mobile observatories, and now cloaky camping is still alive and posing risks to ratters as ever - just the AFK version now has a form of counterplay.
A frigate hole is a game mechanic that CCP implemented to counter the ability of players to roll all their holes. You want a tool to also roll those holes so you can be completely safe.
Small difference.
Or rather a big one. Let’s not continue making this another afk cloaky camping thread as I was hoping we saw the last of that when the mobile observatories were introduced.
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