They do actually. If the Orca doesn’t get nerfed it will continue to be used by multiboxers, defeating the purpose of mining changes. It may still find some use by those who don’t care about waste and just want to mine while watching netflix.
Yea those diamond rats are a little ridiculous. I was playing around on SiSi the other day testing out new changes and bought a crap ton of fit Rorquals just to screw around. Warped to a belt in NPC NS and attacked the diamond rats just for sh**s and giggles. They spawned a 30 ship force of battleships and cruisers on me lol!
Mining is Serious Business.
Will we still be getting double the ore in asteroids? Because that seems entirely unneeded now, at least the full double the amount part, and noticed it wasn’t mentioned.
Sad the mining frigates are not getting updated, I was very excited for them. All they needed was the Gas and mining bonus to keep up with their tq selfs.
Having split bays for ore, gas, and ice still seems very unnecessary. A larger bay overall would probably be better.
Still, the core of what I was excited for in the patch seems to be intact. More specifics will be nice once those hit.
T1 drones. No waste.
Awesome to see CCP actually working with the community on this and not just forcing it.
The waste is still messed up though because doing this you’ve just made me move back to T1 regardless of yield if i get more overall. Period… with 0 waste, why ever not use it? i get it you heard us it hurts newbro’s… but having it at 0 defeats the entire point of the change. Here’s how it should go. t1 20% T2 10% plus crystals (basic yield crystals should be 0 high yield adds 10% maybe 15% so it’s worse than\ equal to T1 but way more yield like at least 1.5x then Faction at 0% with the addition of Gallente Strip miners because there simply isn’t enough people in the game willing to feed the Ore Strip miner supply that you’re going to create with this patch. they will be the next excavator in price 1b a pop. calling it now. Oh and Lasers should have less overall waste than Strip miners… Actually remove Waste from Lasers all together they don’t gather enough to even make a dent in the overall ore supply anyways so why punish newbros at all? Strip miners actually have a yield worthy of a Waste mechanic. which i still think should be removed from overall yield not this shadow cycle stuff we’re getting or as others have mentioned add an ore cloud harvester and throw all the wasted ore into a cloud spawned during mining that only ventures and frigs can mine. The point is make this interesting don’t just make it remove x ore from space… Because you already have a Knob for that. It’s ore in space!
Now Drones. T1 drones something crazy 50% sure T2 drones 30% and Excavators 40% TOPS anything more and why bother putting them in space? (Excavators not Rorqs) why use Excavators if they literally destroy the most ore in the game… Why? I get it… Worse than strip miners so exhumers have efficiency over the Rorq but why literally the worst? You’ve effectively just removed excavators from the mining game. T2 drones should be worse than Strips but they’re the same now? Not crazy worse but just a bit worse so when you want to min max you have something to strive for. Also REWORK EXCAVATORS TOP TO BOTTOM Mining Fighters please? The more input a Rorq pilot is required, the more Yield you can give them without breaking the game. Fix Excavators and most Rorq pilots that aren’t in it for the AFK will shut up and fly it.
Edit: Also the Compact Industry core. please dont name it that… Small… Medium… anything but Compact… its not Compact there isn’t anything Compact about it its a whole new module… keep Compact for Meta\Tieracid.
Also can we think about giving the Porp a Nestor type Ship Maintenance bay? just for refitting? barges need to be refit a lot some times.
So the mining crystals get an update, allow me to once again ask for the ability to check the condition of volatile crystals easily. Yes, I know you only need to move the mouse over the module to see the damage of the fitted crystals.
My suggestion from 3 years ago is to make something like this:
Instead of having to mouse-over the turrets, both mining and combat crystals (if volatile) could have their remaining health constantly presented as a percentage number, the same way as we can see the remaining ammo in the turrets. This shouldn’t be difficult to do, but could make people’s life much more convenient.
@CCP_Psych What do the vertical numbers stand for?
Kinda hard to decipher a graph when the data points used are not defined.
I’m so confused. When I saw the patch last week, I knew I was outraged despite some people who hate miners saying “oh don’t worry about bitter vets” because I knew what the patch did to disposable ninja mining ships.
I tried to join the Jita protests but found out that my safeties didn’t let me shoot, which makes me wonder how everyone was doing it without getting blown up. Everyone seemed to be shooting at one of three battleships that were AFK (in hindsight, they couldn’t be the target since they weren’t taking damage and CONCORD wasn’t coming)
Now I don’t know if I should be from outraged that waste was going to make all our recruits wreck the moons if we let them touch it to satisficed the patch is not going to do that or go from outraged to pretty annoyed annoyed that waste is a thing and a few nitpicks I have like how I’ll see less Orcas.
@CCP_Psych
Dear ccp as i said in the last post but summarized If you add the Compact industrial core without improving the Orca’s defensive capabilities and the Foreman burst bonuses no one will use that thing (aside for the solo miners).
Good changes would be increased the mining foreman CIC strength just enough to reach 50% reduction with all lv5 and implant and double the powergrip to fit a large cap booster or a role bonus to fit one.
The first change make a little bit more attractive the use the CIC for fleet operations and the second increase the survivability.
I know we can be some right unpleasant people to deal with at times, but I’m loving this reevaluation and adjustment of the upcoming changes based upon feedback. This is worlds better than just having half-baked changes dumped upon us. Thank you.
Define axis, also number are wrong. rorq do 180 m3/s not 165, hulk don’t mine so much. etc
you are doing change based on wrong number, what the ■■■■
The Orca really didn’t need a nerf
Looking alot better, ty for listening to CSM and not releasing rubbish like the pile that was going to be force fed to the playerbase in the first place.
YUP the orca didn’t need a nerf and didn’t need the CIC but if CCP want to do this its better that they do it right
You make no sense… For one thing CCP like that idea of Multiboxers and the fact that they would be interested in mining in an Orca , it means alot of money for them, more so than a regular player.
Those against the Orca being an industrial command ship that is also good at mining , are the ones that think the Orca shouldn’t mine at all. Why ? what have an orca ever do to you? Is it jealousy ? Envy ? Why can’t the Orca be the role it’s suposed to be , which is the smaller version of a Rorqual. Rorqual being the top whale any solo miner aspire to be flying one day cause of how powerful it is… Yet Rorqual doesn’t get nerf much, people ask for a more severe nerf on the Rorqual and CCP says nah we’ll just nerf it a little bit but it’s still going to be the equivalent of 8 Orcas now that we have nerfed the ORCA even more.
Why don’t they just straight up delete the Orca from the game at this point , let it be Porpoise and Rorqual.
Now that I think about it more, how crystals should be in terms of limitations they are supposed to cover, it should be like this.
Type A should be the one to cover availability limitation. For precious little rocks we have. The ones where you can’t compromise on waste. Ideally, I’d like it to be NEGATIVE waste, so you can get more of that precious ore. As a tradeoff, make it real slow. It’s not something that doesn’t exist in eve currently btw - look at Mercoxit, that’s literally Mercoxit mining there. That makes it lower ISK/hr solving potential income spikes and oversupply issues, but gives more overall ore you need for your time, while exposing miner as a target for longer period.
Type B should cover manhours limitation. The best bang per hour, rocks be damned. This is actually almost there, I’d say it can go as far as 100% waste chance, but also even more yield. This will also be the type that improves ISK/hr on lowest priced ores, while preventing oversupply by wasting half of them.
Now there’s a room for type AB somewhere inbetween. The one that covers balance limitation. There’s an ore which is gonna be worthless ISK/hr if you mine it by type A, but there’s enough manhours to actually mine it without resorting to type B? That’s where the type that isn’t too slow and isn’t too wasteful would come in best.
So, rough proposal would be:
Type A - slow, negative waste.
Type AB - normal speed, some waste.
Type B - even faster, even more waste, than current B.
Type F - current type C but with 75% more waste to be at least 50% faster than B at rock deletion, preferably 100% faster.
I think these newer changes make the proposed change less of a bitter pill to swallow…
And for those that always cried the Orca needed a nerf…yep, a boosted Skiff fleet is far more dangerous and nerfing the Orca is actually rather dumb to do, cause they mine slower than anything else currently without boxing an entire fleet of them.
Appreciate the number tweaking, and the graphs.
It would be nice if you also included the wastage atop the gather rates, and just a nice comparison chart of all of the new progressions lined up (including Orca bonused ships not just Rorqual bonused).
Why representing wastage is important is because naively looking at your graph 2 rorquals mining is better than Rorqual+Skiff (or anything not Hulk) but pretty sure mathematically while n * Rorquals will clear a belt faster than anything other than 1 Rorqual + n * Hulks, you’ll actually end up with far LESS resources with all Rorquals than 1 Rorqual + n * Skiffs for example.
Now, Hulks are a lot cheaper than a Rorqual (right now) but will be interesting how the wastage vs risk equations all work out with survivability adjustments you mentioned will be coming.
Since Risk be a function like: ShipCost * (1+LossProbablility) ^ TimeExposed
Which has to be balanced against reward: ValueGainedPerTime * TimeExposed
Time being the most important factor for players, not total m3 of raw materials.
Right now Hulks are squishy, and Rorquals aren’t, but if even a skiff is survivable-ish if it isn’t a fast enough miner…
Perhaps all exhumers get enough tank to survive Null belt rats long enough to kill them with drones (sans dreads) (and all barges for highsec rats) or maybe you add more survivability in terms of “running away” with barges (and exhumers) aligning and warping faster, and exhumers get a base +1 warp core strength like a weak DST? enough that a single long range point can’t hold you, but if a close in scram (or multiple attackers) can? (without having to fit a warp core stab sacrificing mining yield that is, though for extra safety one could) Would reward active gameplay (and hey miners can run and reship for fights!) without needing super space brick miners.
One Important point you didn’t quite address with the newer pilot friendly wastage adjustment for T1 modules was your prior comment on Mining Missions.
Mining Missions will be addressed before release. Finalizing quantities will be determined by where we will end up on the waste probabilities profile for T1 modules.
At the time it was assumed that would be worst case mining efficiency so it made since to match that.
However, now worst case wastage (without purposely choosing “PvP” C type Crystals) would be T2 Strip Miner with T2 Type B crystals. Will that instead be the new target volume for Mining Missions, or will players just have to regulate yourself to T1 mining speeds for those? (same for ICE and Gas missions, just sans Crystals) Ideally the missions are tuned for working with whatever is fastest, regardless of waste, since progression into better mining speeds should directly translate to being better(faster) at completing Mining Missions.
Also wonder if any thoughts been given towards gameplay mechanics to reduce your wastage? A lot seems focused on “if you want to mine faster, you’re going to be sloppier” but Eve is all about tradeoffs and specialization, if someone want’s they should be able to, with skill and tradeoffs get T2 Modules (at least with T2 A crystals) down to 0 wastage.
Perhaps something like a scriptable mining enhancer mid slot module a la tracking/missile guidance computer? You have to sacrifice tank slots for it, and the base boosts a couple stats maybe yield and waste (lore wise boosts power to the laser) then scripts to focus pure yield, pure efficiency (lower wastage multiplier), AND pure negative efficiency (for that PvP mining optimization).
This would allow smaller (or ninja) groups without the sprawl to still be economical with what belts/moons they have access to. While also rewarding hyper specialization.
Lastly, while I understand why, math wise, T2 Strip Miners without any crystals have always had lower mining yield than T1. I think there should be a more gradual upgrade path? (and removal of that non sequitur) That T2 Strip Miners aren’t worth using until you also have the skill investment to use the crystals for whatever you’re mining, but if you don’t yet have those for everything in a belt you’re better off using T1 Strip Miner if you’re aiming to mine everything/whatever is closest. With consolidated skills for the crystals maybe not going to be as bad, and since belts aren’t as diverse as they used to be you might only ever need one class per belt (which you’d know in advance?), but there’s still the isk investment and time to get T1 crystals at least beyond the T2 Strip Miners.
However, I think it would be more interesting if T2 without crystals mined faster than T1. It would make logical sense if had more wastage without crystals (as if the crystals are getting the bulk of the extra yield from gathering more of the waste) and/or using the wrong crystals vs ore type increases wastage, so have to pay attention.
It’s just mining has always had an odd progression compared to everything else in Eve. When you get access to T2 weapons you immediately get access to all T2 ammo for it and it’s an immediately better module. Except for mining where you unlock T2 (Strip) Miners and you don’t even have access to T1 ammo and without that it’s worse than the T1 module!
Again thanks for iterating, looking forward to seeing continued iteration and details as they’re available with ongoing communication with the community for feedback!
More than 3 types will probably overload the devs. They probably don’t know how to balance them properly. It’s going to give them more chances to mess up, and this proposal today is almost correct, so let’s not spoil that shall we and just suggest some minor tweaks to bring things right.