Alternatively you can lower Orca cost to that of a Command Ship, and Rorqual cost down to that of non-combat-fit carrier.
And lower Porpoise cost to that of a Command dessie while we’re at it. So that if their function is that of a command ship, they would cost like they are a command ship.
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What kind of stuff an item requires for construction has nothing to do with what kind of object it is in its final form.
An Orca is not a capital ship. It takes no capital skills to fly. It has the attributes of a large-sized, non-capital hull. Just because CCP balanced out the ship’s construction requirements to need capital parts to differentiate it from cheaper hulls doesn’t mean it’s a capital ship.
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So I’m curious; why does wastage need to exist? Why can’t all the other changes continue forward with evaluation, while dropping waste? And just rebalance the existing modules to achieve the desired effect? I don’t understand the importance of this new mechanic
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Also, Someone explain this to me. Rorquals not a mining ship… But its the only ship that can use excavators… Ok.
Secondly, Why are the supposadly best mining drones the ones getting the MOST waste out of everything to the point that again, Noone is going to use them. So actually, Just use t1 drones on your rorquals now guys…
I said it before and ill say it again, CCP just cut the ■■■■■■■■ and remove rorquals and the rest of the capitals from the game, Thats legitimately your current path anyway nerfing them to the point that they cannot be used…
Just save us all time and effort and remove them.
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actually sadly… thanks again to ccp, None combat carrier without fittings is 8 Billion :’) :’) :’) :’)
While I admit I’m not up to current carrier prices, evepraisal showed me 2.3bil for hull, and I’m fairly certain that non-combat fitting without fighters can’t be over 700mil.
Which is still below empty Rorqual hull price.
In that case… The marshal isnt a tech 2 because it doesnt require any of the battleships to 5? That means nothing, you have a weird outlook on skills.
Super carriers arent supers because they have the same skill requirements as Carriers?
Freighters arent capitals because they require no capital skills but they are listed under capitals on the market…
Force auxillery isnt a logi because the ship has the same skills as a carrier?
thats because eve praisal hasnt caught up, when ccp broke capital industry, the current build cost of a rorqual is 6.5 bill, Carriers and dreads are 7 - 8 bill, Supers are 60~ and titans are 250 billion.
ahem… here’s a lamborghini , i remove the exterior covering and replace it with a volkswagen beetle, are you driving a lamborghini or a volkswagen beetle now ?
The inners part of the Orca is CAPITAL class. Doesn’t matter if i need “capital” to fly it or not , it’s capital nevertheless
funny thing, I used to ‘mark’ Dr Eyjo’s graphs and always asked that same sort of question
m
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These updates are a positive step back from previous proposals.
I’d taken some time to draft some thoughts before the update here so some of this may now be less significant than before and I’ll try to adapt as I go.
In general the initial update was like after your employer telling you that they have to cut back on some things for a year or 2 and freezing your wages they then come to you at the end and tell you that there’s good news - you’re finally getting a promised pay rise, as long as you’re ok with working double the hours for it.
When scarcity was introduced CCP were saying it would lead to a better economy and I guess many took that as also better game play.
Instead we were given more changes with more negative impacts on mining yet again so it’s no wonder many are rather unhappy.
The proposed changes affect Null sec/Lo sec/Hi sec miners in slightly different ways tho tended to have negative results for all of them.
With the total removal of minerals from moons now is effectively even more scarcity introduced.
Sure with the industry changes there is more demand for the R4 materials and less demand for minerals in Battleships and above (cause they are still much higher in cost to build and buy as a result and no changes here look to be having any impact on that front).
So mining for those minerals to build things like modules and smaller ships is now only possibly in asteroid belts and ore anomalies.
Which for hi sec miners means they now have to fight over the scraps in belts with not only other players but also NPCs as no ore anomalies look to be returning to hi sec any time soon.
In some hi sec systems that also means the potential threat of Pirate Fob mining fleets popping in on you and then absolutely smashing you with their response fleet. Plus then you have the player gankers. This really makes it more dangerous to mine in hi sec than lo sec and then more dangerous in lo sec than null sec.
These changes could have been a chance to introduce more random varied flavours to Bonus/Blue pops… maybe random small quantities of other types of ores that CCP could use as a way to balance supply and demand.
CCP could also have used this opportunity to make mining a little more interactive and less mundane tho they have totally missed the chance for anything close to that. It could have been a good chance to introduce some better active gameplay that rewards attentive players with much higher yields tho with maybe a fatigue/wear mechanic so that longer periods spent mining end up being much less rewarding yield-wise as time progresses. (such as something like a damage mechanic that increases laser module damage with an option to use nanite paste to keep lasers functional if a pilot wishes to stay out mining for extended periods though with increasingly higher requirements till it becomes better to dock up and rest)
There must be so many other workable and fun options but it seems that all that we get is tweaks this way and that and changes to ships that just don’t seem to end up working and just get annoying for players.
The main reason we have the levels of afk mining (in hi sec, cause if you do that in lo or null you’re just stupid!) is that it takes so long to actually mine the levels of resources needed now. People talk about swarms of Orcas afk mining tho that didn’t happened cause they are better mining ships. They are slower miners than any barge though cost way more. But you have the ability to put them out for longer periods of time while doing real life things. Miners know they could mine more with barges and do so when they can be more attentive for the required dragging & dropping of ore.
The larger tanks on the Orca also mean that they are less likely to be ganked (but not totally ungankable).
Even with a reduced drone mining yield on Orcas people will still semi afk mine with them as even tho it’s less ore it’s still more than they would get from just sitting in station while doing other RL things.
Then in lo and null sec we have Rorquals.
Unless you’re very lucky, just fielding a Rorqual on it’s own is going to get you a nice big loss on your kill board.
Rorquals bring great content… just ask any lo/null sec alliance or group - they don’t even have to be miners as they will very likely hunt for Rorquals if their focus is pvp.
Any of the larger lo sec groups mining are already using Rorquals as bosting and support platforms as well as mining ships.
Something everyone seems to overlook is that any pilot fielding a Rorqual is usually also fielding a cyno for response fleet if tackled and would have toons on standby for combat if they aren’t also using toons for hauling and barge mining along with the Rorqual. So for a Rorqual to be able to mine the levels it does at present isnt really so overpowered. Then factor in the cost … way more than a whole squad of mining barges. These updates look to be a better balance as the Rorqual looks to still be able to hold up pretty well for mining some ore while providing better support to sub capital mining teams.
If the numbers were an issue (I mean how can more potential targets ever be a bad thing?) then CCP could have made it so that the Indy core generates a field so you can only have so many active within a certain area which would reduce the number of possible Rorqs you could field in a belt/anomoly at one time as they have to space out.
Similar with Orcas using new indy core mod. Tho maybe with an increase in Orca boost range (>49km max). Extra strength to boost strengths when deployed in core mode would be an incentive for people to use them more.
The Proposed Compression changes were a big joke really. The method of implementing it is almost a reverse back to the old days of needing a blue print and then starting a job to compress (while in a POS) as no one would do that when they’re actually out in space. I’d think that many miners will just not use it unless they can process the ore at much faster rates and then sell the compressed ore at much higher values. Anyone else will just mine and haul as they are at present and refine uncompressed ore/ice.
The Mining waste seemed like a messy overcomplicated move. We’ve already had reduced yields from changes to reprocessing and rebalanced ores. These updates tho make it a little more of a reasonable factor for choices when it comes to mining.
The reductions in waste for using drones are much more reasonable with the tiers better rewarding the extra skilling and isk investments required. Considering Augmented drones requiring T2 drones to build them they really should be slightly better otherwise no one would bother with them.
I’d suggest more like a 25% to 30% waste probability for them rather than them being more wasteful than T2 at the proposed 40%.
No mention of the Harvester drones but they really should have some waste from using them tho maybe more like 10% to 15%.
Ship Changes:
Additional Specialised Bays seem like yet more needless complication where the general type ore bays presently seem fine on mining/indy ships. We would instead have even more options to try and navigate to open the right bay for what you’re looking for or aiming to store.
I guess there’s the benefit of being able to move a larger total amount of raw material now on one trip if you have it.
DPS potentials have over time increased (Combat BCs and buffs to destroyers dps) so I don’t see the need to reduce the tank of ships as they still can be shot or ganked if you just bring the right number of ships (always back to cost/benefit considerations).
The proposed reduction in slots on ships like Procurer/Skiff I don’t agree with. Exhumers and barges are already pretty tight on fitting tho it’s nice to have options. Removing these slots will reduce the range of fitting options and player choices. Presently we have the option of fitting tackle mods at the expense of tank which opens up possibilities for mining ships to at least be useful if a fight comes along rather than just being easy kill targets that can’t really defend or offer much benefit. If they are considered too tanky then maybe just a reduction in base hit points would have been a better option (which you’re also doing anyway). Though if you’re proposing
to significantly increase the EHP of all barges and all exhumers as well as their mining yield
.then why the nerfs and reduction in fitting choices instead??
The increased fitting stats on the others though are a good move as even max skilled miners with implants haven’t really had that much choice in what can be squeezed into the slots provided on barges and exhumers for a while.
One change that I would have liked to have seen was the removal of the prospect’s ability to use covert cyno as that tends to have no industry case as solely seems used for pvp. Changing the cyno type to industrial may have made more sense.
One question with your charts provided… what is the y axis scaling ? There seems to be no labels as to whether this is time/quantity related so some clarity there may help put things in a better context ?
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Ok, checked blueprint calc, 8.3bil. Point taken, capital production is stupidly broken.
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i vouch for this , just straight up delete every instance of the Orca and Rorqual
While they are at it they legit may aswell just delete the files for capitals, Thats the path they are on at the minute, Making heavy assault cruisers the end game for all characters now, Because at current build costs, anything above them is too expensive and too heavily nerfed.
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You’re just digging your hole deeper. The Marshal, which is a special ship anyway, requires Black Ops, which is a T2 requirement.
Super-capitals are “super” because that’s simply the term we use for them, as opposed to an official classification. They’re all fundamentally just different types of capital ships.
Freighters are capitals because they for the most part meet that criteria, in terms of their ship hull statistics like HP and mass, and they (technically) use capital rig slots. By comparison, Orcas have sub-capital ship stats and use large rigs (they aren’t able to use any capital modules).
FAXes are just another type of capital ships. They aren’t “logistics” ships in the T2 logistics cruiser sense of the term. They are “logi” in the same way that super-carriers (which we called motherships when they came out, by the way) are “super.”
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You are still going to try to justify 400 mil a piece for an excav when its still has waste (IT IS FACTION) just use the same model for the drones as you did the lasers, The %50 nerf to drone mining yield is more then enough for the sake of balance. If you are going to continue to go this route with the rorq, just remove the excavs for gods sake, don’t waste my time with useless things. Just kick me in the face and be honest about it, Dont sit there and pretend you arent trying to. Also, as it stands, still need to reduce train time for rorq considering how niche it is and how not-unique it is.
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that’s not what you said though, you said the orca simply cannot be a capital ship because it doesn’t require capital skills. well the freighter doesn’t require capital skills, and you cant fit rigs to it anyway, So surely, CCP need to move freighters out of the capital ship section right?
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Incorrect. I mentioned the Orca’s stats right off the bat.
Internally, freighters are classified as having capital rig slots. They don’t actually have any, but if they were added tomorrow, that’s what they’d use.
agreed the Excavator drones shouldn’t have existed.
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