From Extraction To Production: Update

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Tsumi_Tzestu

This is purely suggestive, not everyone joins EvE with PvP in mind and seeks out a thrilling PvP experience.

Doesn’t matter what they seek, what matters is what the game IS.

[Gerard_Amatin]

@Tsumi_Tzestu

-Out of a fleet I become useless. Remember exhumer skilling is different than Orca skilling , we talking MONTHS of skill training , also the difference in prices. This is not something you take lightly.
-Fuel consomption. If i have to boost my fleet so they can get faster cycle & range, what do i have in returns for my services ? Oh yes a nice price tag of 15mil in fuel gee thanks.
-CODE shows up unannounced in your system. Hey guys wait up don’t leave me hey yo where are you going … oh sh!T ;-;
-Boost it’s the same as it was before btw except now it’s paywalled behind the CiC T2 anything lesser than T2 is a straight up nerf.

1. Yes, it’s not strange that a mining support ship isn’t really all that useful outside of a fleet. A similar situation: I don’t complain that my solo logi Basilisk isn’t that useful outside a fleet either, as it’s a fantastic ship in a fleet.

2. Fuel consumption - yes, it will cost you a bit to help your fleet, but hopefully the people in your fleet will be willing to pay you for your help. A similar situation: people do regularly give me ISK when I use my Black Ops battleship to bridge them around at the cost of my fuel.

3. If CODE shows up and the members in your fleet only care about saving themselves and leave you behind, get better fleet members and stop boosting those guys. Seriously.

4. Yes, higher skills means better boosts. That’s how things usually go in EVE.

[aldarrin]

@makrish1

Likewise, who would bother regularly hauling 4-5 catalysts to blow up a single hulk for no profit? You’re losing about 75mil isk and not getting anything other than tears back. Do that three times a day and you’ve lost over 200mil. You literally cannot do it forever.

You really can. Between ninja mission running and the abyss for 1-2h (or just do incursions 1-2 times a month), you can gank like this every day. That’s if you don’t bother to scoop loot (which you would). Hopefully they give Exumers teeth as well as EHP.

[Sasha_Nemtsov]

@Kenrailae

The groups that do the ganking… they’re more than organized enough getting 2 or 10 characters sorted out in no time flat

That is a good point, Kenrailae.

It leads me to recall that the miners who are moaning today because their solo playstyle is being attacked are in the same position as we gankers were, a while ago.

It became difficult to play as an entirely solo ganker, unless your target matched your circumstances. For some time I had only one account.

Now, both gankers and miners have multiple accounts, and the ganking organisations to which you refer are large concerns with all the trappings of any other busy corporation/alliance.

Perhaps the miners will do as we did and adapt to new realities, or leave. Either of these is a valid response.

Thanks again for sparking my thoughts!

[Jumpdrive]

@Aisha_Katalen

You don’t think that the rampant resource and isk gathering resulting in fleets with 100s of supers and where losing half of them was inconsequential because it’s “easily replaced” due to enormous stockpiles, was an issue?

You don’t think seeing a sea of afk miners in high sec, be it in their solo Orca or with 5+ mining alts all with dumb names who either are or might as well have been bots, is an issue? How do you think a newbie looks at this when his venture enters a belt for the first time and there’s 10 people there, none who talk, all with dumb names and they all move in uncanny unison like robots? Do you think that’s an inviting view for a newbie, or anyone?

Discouraging newbies in Ventures would be a GOOD thing. It’s a newbie trap, that only seems OK to them, because lvl 1 and 2 missions are even worse and they lack the perspective. I reckon if Venture mining would be lost, nothing of value would be lost.

If you don’t mine yourself, there’s no problem there.

The great power of the major null blocks may be an issue in the game, so Rorqual nerfs can make sense.

[Tsumi_Tzestu]

@Aisha_Katalen

You don’t think that the rampant resource and isk gathering resulting in fleets with 100s of supers and where losing half of them was inconsequential because it’s “easily replaced” due to enormous stockpiles, was an issue?

Which ship do you think mined all that ? The ORCA ?? LOLLLLLL the afk Orcas in HIGH SEC ??? lollll
Sir it’s the Rorqual , guess which one got hit the LESSER with the nerf ? the Rorqual.

Stop crying like a little kid cause we think it’s unfair that the Orca got nerfed this hard , it’s justified complaints.

Let’s see how you would react if CCP buffed exhumers and barges and orca / porpoise with 200k eHP - 800 eHP unbuffed. Seeing how you love PvP have fun trying to kill that in a timely manners.

@Aisha_Katalen

@Tsumi_Tzestu

This is purely suggestive, not everyone joins EvE with PvP in mind and seeks out a thrilling PvP experience.

Doesn’t matter what they seek, what matters is what the game IS.

Just because the game allows PvP doesn’t mean it’s only PvP… Every single time i see someone who’s all in for theses changes are the PvPers… every single time. I wonder why ugh , maybe because THE ORCA WILL BE LOCKED IN PLACE WITHOUT A PANIC?

Then they claim it’s not for them but the game!

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Jumpdrive

Discouraging newbies in Ventures would be a GOOD thing. It’s a newbie trap, that only seems OK to them, because lvl 1 and 2 missions are even worse and they lack the perspective. I reckon if Venture mining would be lost, nothing of value would be lost.

I help a lot of newbies, mostly via Rookie channel but also others who I meet elsewhere and I introduce them to EVE. I never discourage them to do anything other than doing things they don’t enjoy.

If they truly enjoy the concept of gathering their own materials to then build ships and sell them to other players who then fly around the universe with it, then who am I to discourage them from it going “yeah but it doesn’t pay great”. The problem isn’t normal miners who (might have to) interact with others to get the best ouf of things. The problem is folks running several alt accounts who feel that for some weird reason they should be able to do everything themselves, on a massive scale, without effort or risk.

I mean how many posts here are “what do I do now with my orca, I can’t mine”. Well how about you find some friends to play with, form an actual corp of actual people who are actually active and then create some teamwork that requires some thought and (gasp) interaction.

Again, normal miners who want to be an active part in this game, if “only” through mining, are NOT affected by this. It’s only the afk/alt ones who suddenly find that their afk solo play style is impacted, in this interaction based MMO. And no one should care about those.

[makrish1]

@Kenrailae

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the reasons people gank. There is a profit motive for some groups, or some ops for some groups, but there are other motives, too. Either way, I’m not willing to turn this into a ‘but ganking’ conversation when the real conversation is about CCP’s BS treatment of industrial ships from the get go. You have fun now.

I fundamentally disagree. My stance is that with the buffs to indy ships, it’s much more difficult for gankers to gank exhumers as often as they do. Sure, they can blow up 60k ehp ships quite easily if they bring enough, but how often can they do it? The people you’re claiming are the most organised are the ones who do it for profit, as they have structures, hauling alts, freighters on standby for loot, etc. The ones who are doing it for fun typically buy a catalyst at a trade hub and fly it out there as an opportunistic gank, rather than having a large stockpile in a station.

@aldarrin

You really can. Between ninja mission running and the abyss for 1-2h (or just do incursions 1-2 times a month), you can gank like this every day. That’s if you don’t bother to scoop loot (which you would). Hopefully they give Exumers teeth as well as EHP.

If you incursion run for ten hours a day twice a month, you’ll have made - at most - 6bil. That would be enough for 30 hulk ganks, or 12 mackinaws. That’s not including if the orca/porp has remote reps on it.

[Kenrailae]

@makrish1

o it for profit, as they have structures, hauling alts, freighters on standby for loot, etc. The ones who are doing it for fun typically buy a catalyst at

I now understand you’re simply ignorant, projecting your understanding of the game on ALL other forms of the game… Thank you, I can move on to more productive conversations.

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Tsumi_Tzestu

Just because the game allows PvP doesn’t mean it’s only PvP

that’s a straw man, I never said that. People simply need to understand that this is a pvp game and they have to adjust to that. That means they have to manage their risk and weigh the possible consequences of their (in)actions.

Also this whole “but now orca’s are locked in place” is true but lets be realistic here: 80% of the orca’s right now are afk and FAR longer “locked in place” than those few minutes. Perhaps have the orca do the compression next to a citadel or have folks in Griffins there to help and protect. Safety and risk management should come from active effort, not from begging CCP to make it safe, THAT is what a pvp sandbox is about.

[aldarrin]

@makrish1

If you incursion run for ten hours a day twice a month, you’ll have made - at most - 6bil. That would be enough for 30 hulk ganks, or 12 mackinaws. That’s not including if the orca/porp has remote reps on it.

RR shouldn’t matter for a HS gank. That’s a “deal as much damage as possible before Concord arrives” proposition (I’ve done this in game and done the math). On the Incursions, ok? You have to do other ■■■■ to be an Eve parasite. It’s still really easy to be an Eve parasite when the stuff needed to build ships are super cheap and easy to train into while the tools used to extract resources are expensive and defenseless.

@Aisha_Katalen

Also this whole “but now orca’s are locked in place” is true but lets be realistic here: 80% of the orca’s right now are afk and FAR longer “locked in place” than those few minutes. Perhaps have the orca do the compression next to a citadel or have folks in Griffins there to help and protect. Safety and risk management should come from active effort, not from begging CCP to make it safe, THAT is what a pvp sandbox is about.

100% sure people use Orcas for mining because barges can’t defend themselves, not because they mine too much. I’m cool with the changes in null (where I live). But in HS, where I lived for years, the cards are very much stacked in the favor of gankers (why I moved to null). If resources will be exclusive to HS, those that extract those resources must have the ability to fend for themselves until the Concord save fleet arrives.

[Aisha_Katalen]

@aldarrin

those that extract those resources must have the ability to fend for themselves until the Concord save fleet arrives.

That doesn’t work because if the ehp goes up then they will simply use more gankers or different ships. The only thing that changes is the viability, profit or cost of a gank. So if you really think that ships should be 100% safe then you don’t understand EVE much at all.

And as said, there are many ways people can actively affect their risk and safety but that takes active personal effort. Which thus doesn’t work for folks who mine afk with a bunch of alts, which are the ones crying.

[Tsumi_Tzestu]

@Aisha_Katalen

Also this whole “but now orca’s are locked in place” is true but lets be realistic here: 80% of the orca’s right now are afk and FAR longer “locked in place” than those few minutes.

that’s only because it took a long time for the Orca to clear a belt… or needing to go dock at a station at the rate they were mining VS the cargo space it has… You don’t want them to look afk in a belt ? very simple , increase the mining yield on the drones! Oh wait no that will make it close to a Rorqual hmm , let’s reduce the cargo then ! Oh wait no that would make it less used as a transport and fleet support.

So CCP instead of coming up with a nice idea to fix a potential issues of brain dead people complaining who can’t think anything other than an ORCA sitting in a belt = AFK MINING. They instead make them locked in place consuming heavy water. They Instead increase the quantity of ores in asteroids. They instead reduce the drone mining yield.
Do you honestly think these are the right move to fix that issue?

They could of simply allow the Orca have another tier of Mining drone , less than the Excavator but higher than Augmented. 55m3 problem solved.

[makrish1]

@Kenrailae

I now understand you’re simply ignorant, projecting your understanding of the game on ALL other forms of the game… Thank you, I can move on to more productive conversations.

It’s infuriating because I’ve spoken to gankers who love salt mining, I’ve known people who’ve run gank fleets, and I know the MOs.

If you look at all skiffs lost in highsec, you get - on average - 4 or 5 a day. Yesterday, 8 were blown up but 3 were using ORE harvesters. Not a single one of them was properly tanked. They’re sitting at probably about 40-45k ehp if they’re maxed skilled, and they’re taking at least 4 catalysts to kill them. Now, you’re asking gankers to start killing hulks at 60k ehp with 8 alts at the same frequency? It’s not going to happen.

[Kenrailae]

@Aisha_Katalen

So if you really think that ships should be 100% safe then you don’t understand EVE much at all.

Literally nobody who’s serious is advocating for 100% safety. A few of the people you’ve been making overly hyperbolic statements about that have pulled in the people who legit want a better ecosystem, yeah, sure a few of those want it. But a lot of people in this thread aren’t miners, or aren’t just miners. We just recognize a problem.

It’s not that what you’re inherently saying is incorrect, it’s that the way you’re saying it is incredibly trolly. People wanting CCP to stop treating industrial vessels as loot pinatas only defined by how much potential loot and how much it costs to break them isn’t people who want actual gameplay options for an entire branch of the game the entire game depends on.

[Aisha_Katalen]

@Kenrailae

Literally nobody who’s serious is advocating for 100% safety.

@aldarrin

those that extract those resources must have the ability to fend for themselves until the Concord save fleet arrives.

He did, hence my reply. He literally stated that those ships should be able to deal with any gankers (and passively as well I bet) until Concord saves them. Giving them 100% safety.

[aldarrin]

@Aisha_Katalen

That doesn’t work because if the ehp goes up the they will use more gankers or different ships, the only thing that changes is the viability, profit or cost of a gank. So if you really think that ships should be 100% safe then you don’t understand EVE much at all.

And as said, there are many ways people can actively affect their risk and safety but that takes active personal effort. Which thus doesn’t work for folks who mine afk with a bunch of alts, which are the ones crying.

Look dude, I’ve been playing this game since '06. I don’t think anything is safe, or should be. But I’ll tell you I never bothered with mining until recently because there were better ways to make Isk / hr. I used whatever PVE to make isk, indy to build ships, to use ships to kill stuff (and often die). No idea who you are, but trying to gank a bling fit Orca takes 40 toons. That’s not doable with 1 dude multiboxing. That’s fine. It’s doable with 40-ish toons not multi-boxing. That’s fine. It takes 100+ dudes in cheap ships to kill my Rorqual. That’s fine. But when the health of the game depends on dudes in HS mining, those that agree to mine there should be safe against 1 dude grief ganking. If they undo resource redistribution, I’m okay with letting you gank dudes mining in HS with not appreciable cost.

[Kenrailae]

Same as miners are not entitled to a safe space, Gankers are not entitled to profit ganking. That’s part of the problem. Profit ganking has been allowed to become the accepted norm, no, a viable and prolific career path. That’s a problem in game design.

So what if you don’t gank hulks cause you can’t make a profit? People will still do it for salt mining or just to make a point, and profit gankers will still gank freighters on routes.

[makrish1]

@aldarrin

RR shouldn’t matter for a HS gank. That’s a “deal as much damage as possible before Concord arrives” proposition (I’ve done this in game and done the math). On the Incursions, ok? You have to do other ■■■■ to be an Eve parasite. It’s still really easy to be an Eve parasite when the stuff needed to build ships are super cheap and easy to train into while the tools used to extract resources are expensive and defenseless.

RR does matter. A catalyst should be able to do - on average - 16k effective damage in a 0.5 before CONCORD arrives. If you bring five catalysts, that’s 80k ehp (probably less given the random nature of turrets). With an orca, if you have 3 RRs, that will be 7k ehp every 8 seconds. That can be the difference.

[Kenrailae]

2 things.

First, I’ll repeat, anyone who’s serious is not advocating for 100% safety.

Second: Being able to fend for yourself does not equate to 100% safety.