They could make rorqs only 20% better than an Exhumer. That would be a MASSIVE nerf to them, but it would at least still mean:
There is a long term goal / skill train for the mining career
It would keep rorqs in space for NPSI / WH groups to hunt and generate content pings
Keeping them as viable miners means you don’t need to create this artificial hook of having them spending hours compressing so people keep them subbed.
At present you can skill into the best mining career ship in 30 days. Look at the combat side, you’ve got dreads, supers, titans which take 350+ days. There is no levelling up experience in mining with these changes. People play MMOs for the incremental levelling up, take that away and you won’t hold miners attention for long imo.
You don’t think long term hooks are important in MMOs? Would you prefer a world where you can fly every ship on day 1? Pretty sure that won’t hold players attention for long. Long term goals are hugely important.
How did you feel the first time you could fly a T3C, Blops, Dread etc after all that time to reach your goal.
I would just like to state again that this dumpster fire of a dev blog should have had multiple forum threads for different topics or should have had some topics removed from it and put into a separate dev blog. This lack of attempt at competent moderation management planning shows a complete disregard for the communities opinion with an intent to ignore it in one thread.
Suggested breakdown of the topics
Production update
Barge Changes (how about using the procurer and skiff as a baseline of good instead of nerfing them, this bad touch was pointless) Macks/Hulks should have their EHP increased, the HULK should have its ORE HOLD increased so its multiboxed APM doesn’t result in defacto botting, but lets be real with the proposed garbo compression changes you won’t be able to use hulks anyway, you’ll be using mackinaws to remote cargo deposit and repeating, stimulating gameplay that is going to be.
Rorqual/Orca/Porpoise changes (also seriously why hit the porpoise, i guess you don’t want it to be mining more than the rorqual eh.
Compression Changes (can be scrapped)
Waste Mechanic (can be scrapped)
Where CCP is going to be vacationing when the server catches fire after they push this terrible update without actually listening to the community which has more combined experience in this game than the DEVs that got lost playing shovelware survival games and came back to EVE thinking it was a good development model.
Also on a side note PLEASE FIX THE NETCODE - I GET RANDOMLY DISCONNECTED WITH A HARDLINE/FIBER LINE AND EVE IS THE ONLY SERVICE AFFECTED.
This dev blog has brought so much content but only in the forums/reddit. Sadly as we’ve seen nobody from the developers reads and cares about what is being stated in the forum. People protesting in Jita is great but don’t think will result in anything because there are 3-4 people that really like the upcoming changes without having done the math. Thank you to all the people that protested for making a world record in gamers being unhappy with the changes the developers want to make to a game. o/
Good day!
To check the planned innovations, I can’t get on the test server for several days already.
You plan to change the capabilities of the ships, limiting newcomers and giving more chances to gankers. But there are a lot of enterprising people in this game and they will cope with it. Probably. Waste. I don’t understand the point in this. Whatever one may say - this is a step back, or explain in more detail why you are doing this.
Your desire to turn Orca and Rorkval into a squeezer will result in an outflow of players and an increase in the price of everything. I think few players will change 1 ship for 1 + 3 or 1 + 5. For them, their favorite game will turn into work, for which they will either have to pay $ or spend more time paying for ISK.
Well, it will not encourage a new player to stick with it. Not when somebody tells them that it is now an even bigger waste of time to mine. I get that a lot whenever I mention mining in local. I got that a lot in the starter corp. The comments usually went something like this. " Okay, mine for starters to make some sort of isk, then when your skills come up and you can do more than mine, THEN you can really start to make isk and never have to mine ever again. Mining sucks didn’t you know?"
That was the kind of thing always heard. It is still heard. This toon happens to be a new toon for an older player. I wanted another one so I could run a very small fleet of just two miners and one booster ship.
I might not care for some of the changes, but I can deal with them as part of the game that I have no control over. Newer players will be influenced by what others say. I can see new players losing patient and going somewhere else. Those new players will be the ones to hopefully stick around and continue to support this game.
I suppose in the end they can all rush out and buy plenty of injectors now.
They increased the ore, only to waste what they increased. Sounds good.
For solo or smaller fleets no gain there, and possibly even less product for the same amount of work you put into before. That depends on the skill level of all those around you in and out of your fleets.
I can see this maybe being a nothing burger for really large fleets, but I see this as a negative for very small fish. But that seems to be CCP and how they deal with things.
Anyway somebody in CCP once said that Eve was never meant to be a solo game anyway. Tell that to the solo rollers. I would bet there are more of them out there than one would think.
I will continue to slog away, though this does nothing for me. But hey I am a small fish right?
Incoming comments about salt or whatever. Its Eve and the nerds need something to poke with.
So let’s double the size of the asteroids. This sounds fantastic for miners, until you throw in 100% loss while mining.
Mine 2400 m³. That amount goes into the ore hold but the asteroid losses 4800m³.
There is no gain… actually using CCP Math, you’ve lost 2400 m³, so doubling the asteroid has literally done nothing.
Now there will be those that say, “Just use T2 or Faction”, and this is where I would partially agree. Most of us are already using T2 Strip Miners with crystals, but if we want zero percent loss then we have to grab ORE Miners.
Last time I checked, ORE Miners didn’t use crystals. Will there be a fix for this? I’m not seeing this in the patch notes. Of course this doesn’t include how crazy the prices for ORE Miners are, and if this patch tells me anything it’s that the “through the roof prices” will now be astronomical.
Still no fix to systems that had belts, but no longer have them.
Still no fix to EHP on the Orca, which has battleship hitpoints on a capital class vessel.
Still no fix to the Hulk ore bay.
Nerf after nerf after nerf. Clearly the nerfs are NOT WORKING.
If CCP really wanted to fix solo mining, they could have added sub-systems to the Rorqual and Orca for all the “things and stuff” they wanted to do, and it would have allowed miners the ability to configure the mining support vessel aspects without all the nerfs.
What is the logic behind wastage? You add double the ore but then have it ‘lwasted’ at 3 points in the ore to minerals process:
during the mining process itself (with wastage first applied)
during the compression
during the refining process.
What is the logic for overly complicating this? If you feel there is to much ore in the game at any one point there are many points to control this. (Ore spawn rates themselves and the refinery yields to name a few) The extra wastage, especially in the mining phase, makes the whole ‘end of scarcity’ claim a bit disingenuous. I am genuinely curious as to why this makes sense as a game mechanic and why a developer feels this is needed?
Not to po po the entire update. I do like the skills changes and the crystal changes, it simplifies things. The added ore and resources IS welcome, but its not a doubling and you should really stop selling this update as doubling of resources. Compression is also welcome, and given some changes to duration and maybe hanger access i think we can find a good balance there. (obviously hours and hours to compress isnt engaging game play, and wastage should go completely)
All in all i dont really go for the ’ CCP Hate’ a lot of folks tend to do. I get you are trying to do what you feel is best for your game. But like a famous musician once said, once you release something it stops being your’s completely and begins to belong to those that enjoy it. EVE has been around a long time and for those of us that have spent a decade + in the game many peoples lives have been touched by it. They make friends and enemies here, find entertainment and release from their daily lives, and others just like cool space ships that you can shoot people with. I know its just a game, and we shouldn’t make too big a deal about a simple game. But Eve is unique among MMOs which is why it’s still here because the community is strong and passionate. And having devs telling people to basically kick rocks if you don’t like it is a bit of a slap in the face. (Looking at you CCP Rattati).
Give us bitter vets something to strife for again and add gameplay that is engaging and fun. Give new players something to set goals for beyond 5bill abyssal runners. These last few updates haven’t really helped the new players and have only solidified the power of the current major blocks and the richest players. This update only serves to continue this trend. how is a new or med tier alliance ever going to make the 1000+ titans and supers needed to challenge Goons, PH, and some of the other blocks? It just cant happen in the current form.
Ok rant over, back to your regularly scheduled pitchfork burning…
That isn’t how a pvp timer works, this will be a suspect flag, not a criminal flag, so CONCORD will not intervene. The owners of the moon will have to erradicate the menace.
I would change one more thing about the Type C crystals though: increase their yield.
It makes sense that type C crystals mine less than type B and type A crystals, but currently it seems their yield is 7 times lower. Can’t that difference be a bit smaller so that people still get something when mining with type C?
Suggestion: change the yield penalty of -75% to something like -10%, so you gain half as much ore per cycle as with type A and B.
That way anyone who is interested in getting yield would pick A or B, while people who wish to destroy an asteroid still get a decent amount of ore out of it.
Hey @CCP_Dopamine I have another question for you, maybe @CCP_Swift can help me understand the mechanics of waste again. Side Note for Thematics: I am a fan of using the word “Tailings” instead of “Waste” – while not quite the accurate real-world use of the word (it would be at the reprocessing step), it would make the “mining waste” feel more technical and distinct from the “compression waste”. Otherwise saying “waste” is ambiguous, to me. It also allows you to one day have a “tailings” object spawn in space, if you wanted to iterate on future mechanics, eg salvaging the tailings.
If the scenario is like this (easy numbers):
1000 m3 left on an asteroid (let’s say an R64 rock)
1000 m3 harvested per cycle by a T1 Strip Miner
Implying: 1000 m3 will be tailings per cycle
If the miner lets the whole T1 Strip Miner cycle, it seems like the outcome is:
Asteroid: 0 m3 remaining
Ore Hold: 0 m3 added
Space Dust: 1000 m3 poof’d
Is that correct? I would have expected:
Asteroid: 0 m3 remaining
Ore Hold: 500 m3 added
Sapce Dust: 500 m3 poof’d
The reason being: My expectation is rooted in how current “partial mining cycles” affect yield. This seems like a stealth nerf to how “false full cycles” – where the module spins a complete cycle but the underlying m3 only has enough to yield a partial cycle – operate, for the “last asteroid cycle”. Please consider: my expected outcome can actually be attained, but it requires micromanaging the exact partial cycle – and that’s assuming you know the outcome of the tailings for that cycle. With T2 and other strip miners with a probabilistic outcome, you’re now essentially gambling for the last cycle extraction of the asteroid.
I would argue for, instead of a “allocate asteroid m3 to tailings first, then yield” regime, for “allocate asteroid m3 proportionally to both tailings and yield” as that preserves the current expectation around behavior of mining yield and “false full cycles”.
The current implementation is a level of micromanagement detail that seems unnecessary. I could imagine a “let’s make asteroid scanning more important to min/max by having it be an active part of extracting the last-asteroid-cycle”, but I have several counterpoints to those arguments:
I am arguing for the status quo today around “false full cycles” – where the module spins a complete cycle but the underlying m3 only has enough to yield a partial cycle – to not unpleasantly surprise miners around this edge case. This keeps ore mining’s philosophy the same, similar to ice mining’s philosophy around cycle time and yields.
Asteroid scanning modules are already used today, it is not like they are dead weight.
You’re incentivizing players to emulate the “proportional” solution for last-asteroid-cycle by… turning modules on-and-off again in numerous partial cycles. This is not fun, impactful, engaging gameplay.
Those most affected are:
Asteroid sizes with smaller m3 (their effective yield will be disproportionately smaller, and complicates your analyses), which I believe are typically found in more popular areas, which means your analyses are probably over-counting the real yield for these areas; and
People with higher yields – the more skilled and powerful will have more m3 that would first be allocated to tailings first, which actually acts as a punishing function for higher-skilled players.
‘Is this the police?’
‘yes’
‘i’d like to report a crime’
‘what kind of crime’
‘i’m being assaulted’
‘by who? where are you?’
‘a game developer, they’re assaulting my sensibilities’
Suspect flag, only relevant in highsec. There won’t be many highsec moons in operation if the minerals are removed. Highsec moon mining absolutely died last time that happened, but it has found a nice balance over the last 12 months when some minerals were reintroduced.
i finally got to the test server yesterday to test the mining missions they are all broken by the new mechanic
i filed a bug report for 1 plus adding the fitting defects and over sites on the ship i used il test more as i can