From Extraction to Production

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1855

The Skiff is the only real exhumer you can take in hotzones like lowsec or Pochven. WH is a bit iffy mostly due to Wormhole size restrictions.

After Hunters Boon, I dared not take it down into lowsec. Before Hunters Boon, I had some pretty fun adventures dodging hunters and even getting the drop on them. I would counter scram them while jumping away.

Its speed and tank made it an excellent choice for seeking out hard to find resources.

Now that has been sidelined for some time due to the insanity since Hunters Boon.

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1856

This guy is a pro in Wormholes. I would listen to him on this subject matter.

I goof around with max-min settings and figure out how to make a ship the ultimate in several fields.

But when the pros are complaining and have concerns yeah, that is a problem.

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1857

Yes they do.

1858

Yeah, people dont seem to the understand the new mechanic. 34% is the chance of triggering the waste. Not the percentage that will be wasted.
So there is a 34% chance of triggering the waste, and if it gets triggered, then the waste is calculated via the “waste multiplier”, which I hink it’s a x1 … so per ice block you mine, you have a 34% chance of wasting another (units mined) x (waste mutiplier) blocks.

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1859

Took a Machinaw for a test flight on Sisi with Gas Hoarders. So these are the only option for gas on barge/exhumer.

  • Currently just the single tech1 choice. So there is no faction option for waste reduction.

  • They have inherent 1500m reach of other gas harvesting. A frigate can have some mobility for a tight orbit. Barge/exhumer, is just a sitting duck.

Also I would point out just how lack of access there is to Syndicate Gas Harvesters, these are an LP item in a handful of null sec stations.

Of course I could always go back the old days (c2010) of a gas mining Ferox. Which also offers a single boost option - shorten the cycle. Which is part of the reason that the Venture has its bonus for gas harvesting.

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1860

Cool take bro, look at the numbers:

I don’t operate on paper numbers, but simulate all aspects of an activity. For Hulk mining, I factor in whether or not there’s a dedicated hauler (if not how long it takes to warp to a station and dump ore and warp back). For Rorq mining I do both and factor in travel time of the drones. Mining is a boring activity that leaves you vulnerable (even Rorquals can be killed, that’s why there’s 100+ kiki / SB whaling fleets roaming). It’s not “tons of isk” but rather “enough isk to be worth doing.” I can make more Isk running missions than mining, the abyss, etc. I’ve done everything in this game but WH content (look up my account). America was formed from outrage over a “reasonable tax” to pay of debts from the 7 Years war. A 50% tax (not in money, but in our time) is untenable. There are already better ways to make Isk, and I’ll pursue them until my accounts leave Omega. But I’ll be damned if I’ll be treated like serf labor. Mining post nerf isn’t worth doing again (just like it was outside of massive multibox setups back in '06).

Edit: JFC, I have 3 accounts and am busy IRL. I’m not sitting on trillions of Isk. I’m just trying to voice concerns for miners and support the health of the game. Thanks dude, I’m now convinced that not only is “Burn Jita” warranted but “stop selling mined resources to the market.” Maybe you’ll get it when you can’t afford a new HAC.

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1862

Is now a good time to ask that rock size depend on starting M3 of a rock and not the units of ore it holds?

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1863

that dosent change the fact that the play token plex was purchased and that way its still a valid supscritipon. On the point of those free plex sure ccp has given some small amounts away with the aura conversion and mabye on an ohter ocaction i am not aware off. But i do highly dought that is that a large volume and also ccp gave that away as a marketing thing like a discount and so so i guess they have budget that.

Back to the argument discrediting people for using the game tokens that they bought is pretty lame in generel. those plex where bought and people are in their perfect right to use them in the manner ccp envisioned them to be used. All those arguments but they use plex to buy their subscriptions are total nonsense from that standpoint.

Also i hope you understand that i do have not the time to read ever reply to of a 1706 replies post kinda skimm the replies get a feeling for it and so on then guess reply yourself.

But the overall sentiment of this is this patch is bad and i fear if it gets deployed that way i talked just yesterday with 2 new players 1 month old they also said this is total garbage and will most likley kill their abilty to mine in hs at all. They curently fly a procurer wich would under other things get the nerf hammer very badly.

1864

THAT is a very cool request. You should run for CSM next year.

m

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1866

Did you or will you do this?

1867

I often ask ‘why’, yes. Thing is? I also signed an nda so I cannot tell you answers that we get.

Am I or the CSM enamoured with the changes? No. But we see where they are coming from and why so we may not have the same reaction as the general populace.

What I CAN tell you is we specifically told them NOT to say that this was the end of scarcity.

m

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1868

I can understand the situation with which you guys are stuck with.

It is deeply concerning.

And I had to apologize to Brisc because I kind of went tempest hurricane mode, because if I am a player who has had alot of experience with these ships, and kind test ships in weird ways. So I looked at the stats and was like…who sniffed the volcano gases too much for this?

The whole situation with this “patch” is its really like serving cactus to alot of us who really held on.

And I am not happy, about the “mechanic” changes. It stacks on top of everything else. And hurts the newbros the most.

This never ends well. When the oldguards and newbros are hit with a literal wall of ouch.

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1869

How with ore amount 200% from what it is now Any Person with half decent skills T2 strip miners will roughly allow you to pull in 25%-50% more ore. since there is a 35% chance you will waste ore

people with T1 Mining equipment effectively see no change at all if 50% of the ore is wasted thats 100% of what it is now.

What changes in this example.

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1870

Blockquote Some don’t understand how it works. Others understand that it threatens their afk lifestyle. A few are a bit concerned how it will change how vets treat new players.

Blockquote Obvious to you.

Blockquote It also probably isn’t obvious to you why moon goo wasn’t compressable at the same time normal ore is.

Blockquote It probably isn’t obvious to you why lossless compression was a bad thing.

Blockquote The answer to all of this is that the easy transportation of ore favours larger groups with better structures. By making it harder to move, players are more inclined to use their local refineries (the little guy).

  1. I agree that it’s clear from the forum posts that many do not understand (or agree) with CCP’s proposals. I also agree that there is a lot of ‘self interest’ especially those who afk and those who manage to run bot fleets. It speaks volumes about veteran players if they frowned upon or increased ganking on new players. They’ve as much right to mine anywhere as everyone else.

2a) Yes, I did understand why Moon Goo wasn’t immediately compressable, so please don’t make assumptions.

2b) Perhaps I can put forward a case for 100% compression and refining. If I put in place the minimum amount of minerals to manufacture an item, because of skills fewer minerals will be needed. The surplus is not thrown away as ‘waste’, it’s collected to be used for a later occasion. (Yes, it’s a simple example, but I use it to show you where I’m coming from.)

  1. I am in complete agreement with you that, easy transportation of ore favours larger groups - It suits my playing style to transport lo-sec moon goo out to hi sec and without the aid of a Jump Freighter, by choice I use a Viator. Unfortunately, it doesn’t have a huge cargohold, so I would be very, very happy to see compression of moon goo to be more widely available. If and when these changes are implemented, I hope players will argue the case that if the technology exists to install moon goo compression on a Rorq, why can’t it be done either in player owned or NPC stations.

Finally, I don’t post on forums all that often. Too often they descend into rants and personal attacks and the original point becomes lost, so I thank you for your reasoned point of view and courteous responses. I also apologise for the way your quoted text appears due to the fact I don’t post often. :smiley:

1871

How often do they deny a request to forward some of those answers once a patch goes public?

The lack of propper explanation further decreases trust and good will towards CCP.
The lack of propper documentation of some features doesn’t do them any favours either.

It’s very sad that they need to be told not to lie to their customers faces. And then they did it annyways.

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1872

I originally wasn’t planning on creating a comment as at first the changes did not seem bad, in fact they seemed quite positive from my perspective as a miner who just tries to minmax his own gains. From that perspective, the hulk with type B crystals get a nice increase in their m3/hour. Even type A crystals see an increase and that is ignoring the compact industrial core as we mostly use orca’s and very rarely use rorquals.

However I also started a corporation with a couple friends not too long ago. It is no secret we live in nullsec and that ice and moon goo are our main income sources. Ice mining is going to suck a lot because of this change. Cycle times decrease even further and ice holds become smaller. So while needing more space, we get less if we assume a hauler or a command ship which are required for fleets. Which kinda makes the double sized ice belts a little less interesting and that is ignoring two elephants in the room.

Now let’s go to moon goo. I hate to say it, but any tech 1 modules, any drones and type B crystals must be banned from anything R16 or above otherwise the corp will lose money after that update. Does this mean the corp gains money post update if we do this? No, no we do not. We break even compared to pre update. This is a problem caused by the waste mechanic and the removal of minerals from R4. Which leads to my next point.

The waste mechanic needs to be revisited, the percentages are way too high. I think if we want an age of prosperity, the chance to get waste should be halved. I do think waste is an amazing mechanic though. It allows economical warfare and it sounds fairly realistic. You are after all shooting laser at a giant rock. But I have to keep newbros and mid tier people away from anything moon related. Which I do not want to do but they are simply too inefficient. So either I have to define a buyback program based on your fit or like mentioned before ban them from being allowed to touch the moon. If the percentages are halved, they would be welcome as they will be offset by the people that do run the high end stuff.

I also want to go back to the removal of the minerals on R4, yes we expected it but that does not change that R4 by far was the most effective way to get pyerite. Bistot, Arkonor and Pyroxeres are the alternatives to getting a good amount of pyerite per M3 but that is still only a third compared to Bitumens and Zeolites. This is going to create a new age of scarcity as now the limit of construction will be access to pyerite. I am actually a little amazed people did not comment on this yet but then again big groups and alliances have massive stockpiles so this is probably a side effect of starting a new corp and not having those stockpiles yet.

I have one elephant left to address in the room and boy do I hope we can kill it as even without it, the math looks bad. This elephant is called compression where dedicated refinery stations are worse at compressing compared to a ship. Should there be a loss during compression? Yes, should it be as bad as this? No, this is something that needs adjustment in multiple departments. The modules take way too long and the percentages are too low unless you dedicate too many skillpoints.

As much as it sucks to admit, I think the nerfs to the orca and rorqual are good. I personally saw it happen how two rorquals or hell up to 5 rorquals cleaned whole belts of ice, asteroid and moon ore. They do this in such an efficient manner, that it simply made no sense. They should be command ships. I do have to say the compact industrial core for the orca is a cool idea, but it sucks in so many ways that it is never ever worth it. The orca is not tanky enough and does not gain enough benefit. On top of the fact it is a separate skill. It should have been the same skill as the regular industrial core. Do not make things more complicated where it is not needed. In order to make the compact core worth it, either the orca needs to get a compact invulnerability core which makes it live for at least 10 minutes in ganks or the timer needs to be reduced to 30 second cycles.

I have three more things I want to point out. Type C crystals are not effective enough yet for economic warfare. They need a higher multiplier or higher yield because the yield reduction makes the waste too low. Waste must be tracked in ledgers, especially the corp mining ledgers. Last not last which I hope is just a bug, I cannot find out which crystals are used for moon goo. During my tests on the test server, I did not see moon ore mentioned on any of the crystals. Either this is a nerf they are hiding or a bug. If this is a nerf, I will most likely quit the game as this means we cannot use tech 2 lasers on barges or exhumers.

Now because I believe complaining and pointing out problems alone does not create constructive feedback, I also want to offer a list of fixes without removal of any of the mechanics:

  • Makes drones the same as modules in terms of waste chance and multiplier.
  • Half the waste chance on everything except type C crystals
  • Increase the waste multiplier on type C crystals to make them a bit more impactful
  • Make compression modules passive and a little more generic
  • Either make the orca a lot more tanky, give the orca a compact invulnerability core and/or reduce the compact industrial core cycle time
  • Increase the benefits of the compact industrial core
  • Remove the compact industrial reconfiguration skill and use the industrial configuration skill for the compact core(level 1 gives tier 1, level 4 gives tier 2 compact core, making level 5 only needed for the rorqual. This also gives a much clearer upgrade path to the rorqual)
  • Make stations more effective in compressing and introduce rigs to increase compression rate
  • Make the different holds configurable on the porpoise, orca and rorqual. If I want to go ice mine, I do not care about a gas hold or ore hold. So allow me to reuse the space. Perhaps this can be done through expander low slots which in turn would require an extra low slot on each ship to accommodate.
  • Add waste to mining ledgers
  • Increase the pyerite availability somehow by only halving the minerals for R4 or increasing it in other ores
  • Let us know which crystals can be used for moon goo as on the test server I cannot see which can be used for moon goo

Thank you for reading and I hope we can solve this update and actually create an age of prosperity but as is right now, we are heading for scarcity 2.0 which I do not want.

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1873

It would be very hard for CCP to both give us an opportunity to test unfinished current development work that is in a constant state of flux and give us complete and accurate documentation as to the up to the minute current state of affairs. CCP is an organization, and coordinating everyone to the degree necessary would be difficult and probably harmful to development speed.

CCP Psych said it was pushed to the test server for a reason, and part of that reason would be because it does not meet their standards and it isn’t finished.

Bugs, errors, bad documentation and whatever else are part of the testing process, and if people want to be a part of it they’ve got to put up with these issues gracefully. If people flip out over unfinished work being in an obviously unfinished state then we won’t get to try it out until it is mostly finalized and the time for feedback has passed.

Be critical and point out all the problems, but don’t let the existence of problems in testing phases cost CCP credibility if we want them to continue to invite us into pre-production releases to look for them.

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1874

Maybe at this point we’ve gotten so much stick and so little carrot that people don’t trust CCP enough to make good on their promise to END scarcity?

And lack of communication and explanation is a BIG part of that.

This Dev blog only confirmed those concerns.

If CCP does turn this around and fulfill their promise to END scarcity would be an amazing FIRST STEP in restoring some faith - and certainly reactions to a dev blog of this calliber would become much less harsh if we have a reason to trust CCP WILL listen.

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1875

You’re going to lose a lot of your player base if you push these changes through as is.

1876

I think it loses agility in order to provide better “content”

Covetors are usually used by people who multi-“box”, they swarm an orca / rorqual, which gets stasis-webified by it’s barges (using duel in highsec) whenever it moves, or it just warps to a ping and back on the mining grid in order to move to the next rock. The webbed orca moves at 10m/s, the covetors clear anything within the range of their drill miner range, while the orca is going “max speed” and can therefore instawarp in case something the operator doesn’t like appears on grid. When the orca fleet-warps off, the orca might be instawarping, but the barges are left behind aligning for 10 seconds, and eventually bumping each other while aligning, causing them to align for even longer.

A ganker who was realized by the orca’s operator will not be able to get the orca, but he has good chances to get a covetor as a compensation for his “effort” instead.

Procurers, on the other hand, are usually used by people who either don’t multi-“box”, or who are playing on their main while they use the procurer as not-so-cloaky eyes that generate ore while providing intel. The Procurer user is considerably more likely to make an attempt at saving his procurer from gankers then the Covetor multiboxer is likely to bother about his barges (his command ship is more important and before it’s off grid, the barges won’t be paid attention to).

Reducing the Procurer’s agility will make it more likely that gankers can grab it in time, and therefore, get some “content” from solo miners. If the Procurer made the warp rather frequent (which procs do these days) , being able to steal the Procurer’s mining or combat drones is hardly a good reward for the ganking “effort”.

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