Fully capped out ships being unable to initiate warp

[stefnia_Freir]

@Gerard_Amatin

While a neutralizer would not be as reliable for ‘disrupting’ a ship fast as it first needs to drain the capacitor

my viator has 1700 GJ. drained in one cycle of curse.
occator 3500. Needs 2 cycle, or 2 curses, to drain it out.
NH 3500

Most cruiser or smaller are neuted in one cycle.

[Moko_Musana]

Every playstyle in eve can be countered by another playstyle. emphasis is “another”. The capacitor neutralization, so far, has been counterable by injecting capacitor using capacitor boosters, so the proposed change already wants warp to be possible only if capacitor has been sufficiently high for a given timeframe, eliminating the classic capacitor warfare counter from being usable against warp interdiction by energy neutralization.

Further, classical warp disruption/scram can be countered by …

• Destroying the source of the scram effect. So far the most final solution to the problem of not being able to warp, however, destroying a cap neut source will not return capacitor. So the cap neut’s victim still can’t warp
• Outmanouvering the source of the scram. Again, while energy depleted ships have inferior manouverability, even if they manage to outmanouver all cap neut sources, they can nevertheless not warp as outrunning capacitor neuts does not give any capacitor back
• Breaking sensor locks of the scram. Using either Burst Jammers, Sensor Dampeners, ECM drones or other fleet members using ECM modules to disable energy neutralization users from applying their effects on a victim will not provide it with any energy, therefore the victim cannot warp away even despite having broken the effect’s usage
• Cap neutralizing the scram source. If the scram source can’t cycle it’s modules, you can warp away… unless, you still don’t get your capacitor back when you take off enough capacitor off your opponent, or the opponent depletes himself w/o your help
• Warp Core Stabilizer modules and/or hull bonuses. The least reliable to reenable warp, as the scram user can potentially have multiple or stronger scrams, but if they don’t the WCS can re-enable warp drives… but it won’t provide capacitor, which is still disallowing the victim from warp.

So, the new mechanic effectively renders all counterplays against getting tackled that have been in the game so far, obsoletes a module category (scram and disrupt) and it’s defensive counterpart (WCS) while offering no obvious counterplay and buffing a module that is already quite strong?

Especially given the disablitiy to warp even when the effect has been countered enables all kinds of really lazy alt play and still being successful:

• losing your tackle alt while no other ship has a tackle on the victim. To the gate guns which were very predictable yet you were lazy enough to get wrecked by them nevertheless and didn’t move your dps boat into scram range or didn’t even fit a scram on it in the first place
• manouvering your tackle alt into the nirvana (or afk orbiting the wrong object) w/o realizing it before it left it’s scram module’s range
• not grabing additional scrams before the primary tackle gets sensor warfare-ed
• not paying attention to the capacitor state of your tackle alt

[Lugh_Crow-Slave]

@Gerard_Amatin

While a neutralizer would not be as reliable for ‘disrupting’ a ship fast as it first needs to drain the capacitor,

I mean, there are a lot of alpha nuet ships out there. Abbs can one shot a cruisers cap, even some bbs

[Glenduil]

@ARES_DES1DERATA

It would require some minor game mechanic tweaks. Let’s say for example - when you get fully energy neutralized by an enemy ship, you can’t just eat a cap booster and warp away - your warp drive is disabled and you need to have X amount of cap for X amount of time before it will come online again. Something along those lines. Could break the game IDK. But I think it would be cool. Ships like the Sentinel and Cruor would become a lot more interesting

Or you could just get a warp scram and do it that way. Sounds like you are begging for a way to stop someone from warping that can’t be countered. If they get cap drained, they have to wait 1 minute before warping again- no take-backs.

Has PvP fallen this low finally? You already have Stasis Webifiers, Warp Scrams, Cap Draining, and Bumping without any collision damage. PvPers need more? Sounds like it’s time for a Top Gun dog fight training school.

[Caucasius_Ballindrone]

I agree here, and am not advocating for this change. More just interested as a thought exercise given CCP is unlikely to pursue this anyways

[Nujenif_Talvanen]

I’d say 1%
or a set capacitor amount like 2GJ
I actually think 1% is a good amount, it makes it viable to cap out battleships but makes it near impossible to get a frigate like that.

[Arthur_Aihaken]

I’m still going with NO for $200 Alex.

[ARES_DES1DERATA]

The fact that people still think the “capacitor is empty” notification means you can’t enter warp is hilarious to me. Does anyone here actually play the game? hurrrdurrr

[MB_ThePhotographer]

@ARES_DES1DERATA

“capacitor is empty”

“If” you can. it’s the best way to get outta trouble. A short hop that no one can catch you at as you drop out and if nothing else, keep moving around until you do have the warp power to make a getaway.

[ARES_DES1DERATA]

Well warping out is a good thing either way. And hopping around making safe spots is blob escape 101. Draining your own cap on purpose, and then initiating warp to get a shorter warp distance where you can create a deep safe spot, has been used by quite a few l33t players over the years. Personally I never used this mechanic because it’s completely unnecessary when flying smaller faster ships. But yeah, it is a thing.

Cap stability is a funny thing in general. Even after multiple decades of game theory, players still overvalue the importance of it.

Edit: I do concede your point though - if I’ve been completely drained of cap by the enemy ship, the odds are good that I’m being warp disrupted as well. In that case you get the “cannot warp because external factors are preventing it” notification, not the “capacitor is empty” notification but yes point taken.

[Glenduil]

@Uriel_the_Flame

Yes this would make sense as currently as above described it is rare to actually happen.

Even if the warp takes ‘x’ amount of cap there should be a minimum amount of cap needed to initiate it even if the warp itself doesn’t consume it (thus below ‘x’).

Maybe something like at least 5% cap needed (or if it’s more than that then whatever the warp itself requires) or something along those lines.

I vote no. Become a real PvPer and use a warp disruptor or a warp scrambler. Those modules are already in the game.

[ARES_DES1DERATA]

Warp disuption field generators = not real pvp
Interdiction sphere launchers = not real pvp
Warp bubbles = not real pvp
Honour points = not real pvp

[Glenduil]

How is it not PvP? Do you think Warp Bubbles help with mining? Preventing rats from warping away? Or perhaps research and development? Ship building? Do you really use warp bubbles when copying blueprints? There are YouTube videos you may need to watch. They have some great guides there.

[ARES_DES1DERATA]

It was sarcasm. I was going by your theory that only warp disruptors and warp scramblers constitute real pvp. Sorry you didn’t catch that

[Glenduil]

I know it was sarcasm. I gave a sarcastic response because yours wasn’t serious. I’ll use a disclaimer next time.

We don’t need more ways to stop people from warping away. We already have several methods. PvPers are getting lazy.

[ARES_DES1DERATA]

Coming up with new and interesting ideas is the opposite of lazy. This idea isn’t even something I want personally for my own use. I don’t even use drone or neut boats regularly (at least not as much). It was just an interesting idea (I have many)

Let’s stay on point tho - you claimed that only scrams and points are “real pvp” and I’d really like to hone in on this theory. Seems doubly ironic since you’re the one who also said “pvpers are getting lazy”

[Glenduil]

Actually that’s not what I said. If you really want to discuss my post as “letter of the law”, then at least get the quote right.

@ARES_DES1DERATA

you claimed that only scrams and points are “real pvp”

That is not what I said.

@Glenduil

Become a real PvPer and use a warp disruptor or a warp scrambler.

This is what I said. They do not mean the same thing. My post is still up there- I won’t edit it. You claimed that warp disruptors, Interdiction spheres, and warp bubbles aren’t real PvP. You stated the absolute. I did not. Details matter.

I said to become a real PvPer (an abstract comment) and use methods that are already in the game (warp disruptors and scramblers). Real PvPers (an abstract comment) use methods that are in the game instead of asking for more ways to accomplish the very same thing.

[ARES_DES1DERATA]

So if real pvpers only use warp disruptors and scramblers, then that means according to your theory,

Warp disruption field generators
Interdiction sphere launchers
Warp bubbles
and Honor points

Are all used by fake pvpers, or in other words “not real” pvp as I already said (according to what you said) and these modules all exist in the game currently by the way

[Uriel_the_Flame]

I think you misunderstood what this thread is about as OP is not meant to substitute scrams/points with cap neuting, instead it addresses the oddity that even fully neuted ships can still initiate warp, which is kind of odd if you think about it.

This is not meant to replace other forms of warp prevention, actually not even meant to be about tackling at all, because as you mention that function has its dedicated modules and other tools, it is simply about the fact that despite neuting, due to how the system works, ships are still somehow able to warp away even with a zeroed out cap, most of the time or such.

[Glenduil]

@ARES_DES1DERATA

So if real pvpers only use warp disruptors and scramblers, then that means according to your theory,

Warp disruption field generators
Interdiction sphere launchers
Warp bubbles
and Honor points

You’re still misquoting me. Perhaps your teacher can help explain this to you. Ask her for help tomorrow in school.