Your apology is more than accepted, you may feel free to operate according to any assumptions you may desire, Miss Polevhia.
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Alright. Vausienne has completed the transition from āacademicā to āSummit bloviator,ā then.
If I may, cheap rhetorical shots, while fun, are not often a way to execute an effective campaign.
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If I was unclear, I already made the admission that I was in fact doing just that earlier in the discussion. While intended as a demonstrative act of the notion that itās easy to distort the truth and facts to pursue an agenda of propaganda for another, I realize the mistake that in doing so it presents a fundamental misrepresentation for a wider audience. As such, for that, I do apologize and will refrain from doing so in future.
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Just an aside:
The status of Caldari Prime is not an issue for FedGov ā it is a matter of charter and constitution. There exist member-states on Caldari Prime that are signatory to the Federal Union, whether they are traditional ethnic Caldari tribes living in the Kaalakiota mountains or historical Caldari majority nation states. Until such signatories formally exit from the Federal Union they remain party to all treaty obligations of the Federal charter and constitution, chief among them as regarding recent history with the Caldari State, articles of mutual defence.
While some degree of autonomy to Caldari corporations on the Caldari homeworld has been given by FedGov; that remains predicated on the fact that such territories are Federally Controlled Territories as agreed to by the host member-states on the planet, and are approved by such local governments that remain signatory to Federal charter.
As such the status of Caldari Prime at present is not a result due to inaction of the Federal government, but due to the fact its nations and people choose to remain part of the Union, and will remain so until they decide to invoke articles of self-determination to exit the Union.
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Interestingly enough, I can only recall Makoto using the word-root ābloviateā on this forum. āBloviatingā, āBloviatorā and so forth.
No one else appears to use the term. Well, I think I did one time. But still. Thatās only 3 usages (4 after I make this post) of the term on the entire IGS. Isnāt that odd.
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Since there is a charter that claims Federals dare to touch our homeworld, to establish lasting peace between Caldari and Gallente this charter shall be nullified, and thus the Federation must be destroyed.
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The Federation itself as a supranational interstellar entity makes no claim to Caldari Prime beyond the membership of indigenous ethnic Caldari populations on the world itself who are member-states of the Federated Union.
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āMember-stateā?
It is the Corporations, and not any democratic government, are the primary representatives of the will of the Caldari people.
Caldari Prime belongs to Caldari, and thus it belongs to Megacorporations. So-called āmember-statesā are archaic remnants of a failed regime and have no power. They went defunct about 200 years ago, when Caldari people followed Corporations.
And if you said that the Federation itself āmakes no claimā to Caldari Prime, how comes their occupation forces were poured on the planet, attacking the defenders? How comes Federal fleets in violation of treaty of 10 June YC110 have attacked Caldari fleet stationed above the Homeworld?
Only by valiant efforts of SAF most of the planet was protected from the Federal invasion, but currently half of planet went under the occupation, and the skies over the Homeworld are not safe anymore: they are under Federal control.
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Well, what a wonderful and constructive discourse this has been in the comment section. Truly a remarkable icon of Federal and State co-operation, both sides should be commended for their extraordinary efforts to further discourse between our two nations on such a renowned and esteemed medium as the Intergalactic Summit. What could possibly torpedo such an endeavour?
Although I am fairly late to the discussion, and whilst I did think your speech had some interesting points within it, I cannot help but feel as if you have succumbed to the very ailments that afflict this forumās more vocal inhabitants. My dear friend tells me that your belligerency is due to your origins in Solitude, and the inherent mannerisms that are associated with such individuals that hail from that region. Iām not too sure, having only associated myself with those from the core regions, but after reviewing some of your later responses it rings true of someone that is a card-carrying member of the Hawk bloc. Your prior military service is indicative of your desire to protect the Federation, and I donāt believe that your incendiary remarks do much good to promote goodwill between our two nations, notwithstanding the clashes that we have engaged in recent history.
I do believe youāve discussed your essay with one particular Caldari pilot, of which they are infamous for ultranationalist beliefs and skewed perception of history in favour of the largest criminal enterprise to ever attaint the Caldari State. And yet, you have deemed this sole encounter as representative of the majority of the inhabitants and population of the State. One personās views equate to that of 8.4 trillion people? Somehow I donāt think that is a valid assumption to make. And a dangerous one to harbour too. Would it be fair of us to condemn every single Federal citizen as imperialist and intolerant of other cultureās way of life because of one or two vocal individuals? There are those that advocate that one shouldnāt be inclined to care what outsiders think of our way of life or system of governance because unless they pose an existential threat to the survival of the State and those who sail within her, they would be considered irrelevant.
Iām not one of them. I do feel quite strongly in closer co-operation and reconciliation with the Federation to ensure that our mutual security and prosperity are not imperilled by the cauldrons of conflict that some are all to eager to stir. And that since the end of the First Caldari-Gallente war, the Federation has shown that they are capable of respecting the political systems of cultures that differ from their own, the arrangement with the Jin-Mei being the most prominent example within the Federation itself. Whilst the issue of Home is one that many Caldari feel strongly about one way or the other, I donāt believe it was worth setting the dangerous precedent of pre-emptive strikes in interstellar conflict resolution to reclaim it. All it has done is make both sides wary of the other and seeing potential threats where there are none. My people are strong, dignified and have survived for decades after being forced to leave our cradle of civilisation. It will always be our Home, regardless of which polity controls it. Nonetheless, I would be of the opinion that those we would consider foreigners that reside on Home are welcome to stay, as they have proven by their deeds that they are capable of living there just as we have done and have done so for generations.
I hope that I havenāt fallen into your perception of a bloodthirsty, savage Caldari and that my words offer some meaningful contribution. If not, well, I do fear for the future if all we can manage diplomatically are shouting matches and sabre-rattling.
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I would have to say i disagree with my distinguished colleague. All the Gallente have proven during the occupation of Caldari Prime is that they are not worthy or deserve to remain on Home.
We Caldari , were treated as subhuman , subjected to violence on a daily basis , murder , rape . Gallente authorities never holding their own to account for their crimes , because it was against a Caldari.
They tried to ethnically cleanse our history by vandalising our historical sites , they burnt down last surviving Tikiona State archeological site on the planet. These were our ancestors, and a place that was sacred to us.
They defaced memorials dedicated to Caldari killed during the Federation bombardment.
We were considered expatriates , had to have permanent work visas to remain on the planet. All property and land titles for Caldari Prime were owned by the Federation government or private enterprises.
This is what life was like for us until YC110 and real liberation .
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That is only your assertion.
The Federal citizens of Caldari Prime remain Caldari by virtue of the fact that they are the direct descendants of the indigenous people of Caldari Prime ā the Caldari ā and this is based on genealogical and genetic records, in addition to their self-identification as Caldari by following in the cultural and social traditions of the Caldari, speaking Caldari, and by all metrics being part of an unbroken lineage of Caldari civilization which can be evidenced by the archeological and written record.
As such, the inhabitants of Caldari Prime are Caldari by virtue of fact and evidence, and not corporate assertion. The Caldari member-states of the Federation are not defunct, and they are, such as Arcurio or Tovil, among the foundational members of the Federated Union as it exists today.
Because the government of the Gallente Federation has an obligation to defend its citizens and its member-states from the depredations of foreign aggression. With the movement of the CNS Shiigeru into low orbit around Caldari Prime, a red-line was crossed: its potential use by the State Armed Forces to persecute Federal citizens of Caldari descent on the planet could not be tolerated, and as such resulted in Operation Highlander.
I would say for the Caldari who actually live on the same world as their ancestors, the Federation has fulfilled its obligations to them as member-states, and secured their lives and liberties from the tyranny and persecution of foreign aggression promoted by the State during their brutal five year occupation.
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Captain Horn, thank you for your response and I hope to address your points.
Although I would agree that the UDI government and those occupying high society on Gallentia at the time influencing and bankrolling such political thoughts did indeed think of us as barbarians and in need of suppression, the subsequent Federal administrations after that did their utmost to reverse the ultranationalist trappings and policies that had been implemented and worked hard to ensure that never again would member states or their charges would be subject to such horrific and frightful events as Operation Heavenās Justice, or the crushing of attempted uprisings by states on Gallentia in protest of the outrageous actions taken by the Duvailer administration.
Although violence directed towards Ethnic Gallente and Caldari is unfortunately and regrettably an occurrence in both the State and the Federation respectively in times of strife, I have to disagree with your point. The principles of the Federation are that every person residing within their borders have inalienable and inviolable rights to life and liberty and that they are sacrosanct within Federal society. Although Federal and State justice are subject to gross errors of judgement at times, I do not believe for a second that the Federal government today would endorse such heinous acts to be carried out against their citizens. Especially as they have no authority to do so in the affairs of the member states.
My heart bled when I saw the remnant Tikiona State site ablaze. My ancestors have a long and proud heritage of naval service stretching back to that time, although the details are murky and passed down. Youāre right in that our cultural heritage is sacred to us, and the defacement of memorials to the victims of Operation Heavenās Justice is to be frank, a bloody outrage to all that share values of decency and respect. However, I cannot blame the entire populace for the actions of a few. Itās unreasonable to do so, as both a citizen and someone in a position of authority. If we do blanket blame, then we are no better than those criminals that blamed every Caldari man and woman for the tragedy at Nouvelle Rouvenour.
The planet was virtually empty when the Federation, aside from those too proud to leave and the various member states/tribal groups that remained, courtesy of the Exodus. The Federation rebuilt and repopulated the planet with their own funding and their own people, and they not only survived but thrived on the planet that forged us into the people that we are today. The planet has been cared for in our absence, it has not been environmentally devastated or destroyed. It has not been defiled because ethnic Gallente chose to make a living there in the harshest of conditions.
It is ours in spirit and in our hearts. It will always be the birthplace of our people and that is not a topic for debate. But we have survived without Home in our tangible possession, have done so for decades. We are survivors, and we have proven our strength via the spirit we share and the prosperity and nation we have built for ourselves on our planets and amongst the stars. We cannot violate those that chose to live on Home, some of whom have done so for generations. Negotiation, instead of force, secured the right for Ishukone to administer half our planet. Which is better than what we would have achieved if we had reignited the war.
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No, you ignorant thing.
This was proclaimed by Caldari Senators (when Federals started to put ridiculous demands against Caldari colonies even contradicting existing Federal law which allowed their independent existence) and was the main principle on which Caldari State was found.
CNS Shiigeru was put in there to protect Caldari citizen from Federal agression - which happened anyway, Federal invaders destroyed both CNS Shiigeru and other stationed defending ships, started war on the ground, that led to multiple deaths among both Federal and State citizens.
The ship was there on the protection duty and didnāt attack anyone. Federals did. Claiming that anyone needed defense from CNS Shiigeru is an outrageous and outright dumb attempt at twisting facts and telling me about what didnāt happen.
Donāt forget, gallentean. I was there and saw what happened. Many capsuleers were there. And whole cluster was there as well. Agression came from Federals. It were gallentean swines, who crossed a red-line, not CNS Shiigeru.
Now thatās again straightforward ignorance.
When Caldari people started protesting against attempt at their lives by racist attacks of gallenteans, Federation behaved exactly like tyranny, simply beating the protestors and resorting to deadly force. Then they simply segregated population by racial traits.
Caldari Prime belong to Caldari people, and gallentean occupants must not put their dirty feet on our planet after all these crimes they have committed against Caldari people!
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āCorporations who wish to establish a colony typically have to acquire permission to do so from the nearest authority, either a member state or district government.ā (Government and corporate colonies, Government of the Gallente Federation, http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Government_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Government_and_corporate_colonies)
This point was part of the existing Federal charter at the time, it was not followed by the Caldari corporations at the time, thus no contradiction exists.
Again, just because you, or Caldari Senators at the time of secession, or Caldari corporations today assert that it is only the State that has authority to determine who is, or who is not Caldari, does not mean such an assertion is accepted elsewhere beyond its borders.
Given the violation of the YC12 Federal-State Armistice in YC110 by the violation of the sovereign borders of the Gallente Federation by the SAF; the ability of the Caldari State to abide by any treaty obligations it signs is to be regarded as circumspect.
With the deployment of the CNS Shiigeru in to low orbit of Caldari Prime, the belief was that it would conduct violence against civil populations ā that Admiral Yanala was ordered by the State Executor Tibus Heth to fire its Oblivion weapon at Caldari Prime in an act of mass murder shows that the belief of State sanctioned violence and murder towards civilians was a prescient and correct one.
The Federal government has an obligation to defend the lives of it people, and it did so successfully during Operation Highlander. The Federal government does not have any obligation towards the members of the SAF or to the opinions of State personnel such as yourself who would advocate or defend the wholesale slaughter of the innocent.
Your attempt at what-about-ism aside, the YC110 attacks on Caldari sites and memorials was in violation of both local and Federal laws and attempts were made by both local and Federal authorities to bring the perpetrators to justice. In this case, the Federal government saw such acts as both reprehensible and criminal as part of official policy.
This is in contrast to the official government policy of the Caldari State in YC115 which with the order of mass murder given by Executor Tibus Heth to Admiral Yanala to fire a weapon of mass destruction on the Caldari populace of their own homeworld would be considered both criminal and reprehensible for any human being possessed of moral feeling.
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Typicallyā¦
Who said that? Rafal from Pedestal?
Because history books say, āAccording to Charter law, it was perfectly legal for colonies to be established independently, as had been done for centuries.ā (Luminate Era of the Gallente Federation, http://wiki.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?title=Luminate_Era_of_the_Gallente_Federation#Sobaseki.27s_Sedition)
The only problem with these colonies was that they wereā¦ ābeing administered by Federation-based corporations without any democratically-elected authorities.ā (same reference)
And that caused Gallentean greedy swines to circumvent the law and try to sieze the colonies for themselves: āGallente Senators demanded that the corporations relinquish control of the colonies[5], and hold elections for a new leadership based on universal suffrage.ā (same reference)
Gallenteans were changing their laws to get what they wanted, sacrificing needs of others. If I am not mistaken, Intaki are still prohibited from building their own colonies.
Being Caldari is not assertion, is not determination, it is a definition. And it is defined as being a member of Caldari State. There is no Caldari nationality, there is no Caldari genome: there are just Deteis, Achura, Civire. And there is Caldari State. And nobody else besides Caldari State can define what Caldari is.
If you want to live in Caldari territory, if you want to be part of our culture, you follow our rules and our definitions. If you donāt - then get out and donāt bother us with what you think about what Caldari is. Becuase whatever you think about it is irrelevant.
Again a myoptic and ignorance. The Tierjiev Armistice was violated not by SAF, but by the Federal Navy when Adm. Noir rammed his Nyx into Ishukone station Malkalen solar system in the territory of Caldari State. And after that YOU DARE to open your gallentean mouth to blame US in violation of that treaty?
Shame on you.
Shame on your ignorance.
The State follows the treaty we signs. Itās the Federation who doesnāt! Donāt try to spread your pathetic lies in here, gallentean! It was Gallente Federation, who violated Treaty of YC12 with their Adm. Noir. And it was Federation, who violated Treaty of YC110 with their Operation Highlander.
Unlike gallentean swines, Honor of Caldari State is intact! We keep our word and uphold the treaties until you discard the treaty with your violation.
Donāt you dare blame us in what you did. Thatās just dumb.
I donāt care what gallentean swines believe in. I do care what they do, and what we do.
And the facts show this:
CNS Shiigeru didnāt shoot any targets on the planet.
Federal Navy attacked stationed fleet in a suicide attack, killing most of our and destroying practically all their fleet in this disgraceful operation. And that attack violated a treaty between State and Federation.
Prior to attack on CNS Shiigeru, Federal Navy launched a planetary invasion on Caldari Prime, causing multiple deaths on the planet. Luckily, federals choked on their blood and occupied only less than a half of the planet before next armistice was signed. That planetary invasion violated the treaty as well.
The only civilians who died that day were because of Federal aggression. All claims about State killing civvies is just nonsensical blubbering of ignorants.
Isnāt it just idiocy, claiming people came to ādefendā, when the only thing they brought themselves is death and slaughter. And you dare to blame US in āslaughter of innocentā?!
What do you have instead of eyes? Fedo dump balls?
REALLY? Using lethal force against citizens, crying for justice, is what you call justice?
I think Iāve already said, no mass destruction weapons was fired by Caldari that day against civilians.
It was that mass destruction weapon dropped on the planet by previously luring it into low orbit by previous planetary invasion, executed by gallenteans. Should I say, if the gallenteans wanted only to destroy CNS Shiigeru, they could have attacked it prior to planetary invasion, when it was in high orbit - then there would be no chance it dropping on the planetary surface. Nope. Donāt dare claim to me they wanted just to destroy that ship. Why the hell did they start planetary invasion right before that? The ship was in space, not on the planet surface, for Makerās sake! Should now I bring a map and show what is ground and what is space to you?
Only because of Adm. Yanalaās actions, that falling weapon of mass destruction didnāt detonate. If everything went according to Gallente plans, the destruction from the whole arsenal of doomsday missiles exploding simultaneouslyā¦ could be colossal. Itās hard to predict destruction from one doomsday hit, but all of them exploding at once?.. Gallente are truly inhuman monsters.
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Yes, the Federal charter only recognized a) democratically elected governance and b) that corporate colonies be founded under the auspices of a democratic member-state of the Federation. The colonies founded by Caldari megacorporations were in violation of both precepts and thus considered illegal and unrecognized by the Federation government of the period as per charter.
Again, that is only your assertion.
Admiral Noir was operating as a rogue agent and while the Malkalen incident was a regrettable for its loss of life, it was not officially sanctioned by the Federal government. The violation of the sovereign borders of the Gallente Federation by the SAF was however conducted with the full authority of the CEP and Executor Heth, as such it was a knowing and complicit violation of the YC12 Armistice by the State government.
Only because Admiral Visera Yanala disobeyed her orders ā orders that were given by the State Executor Tibus Heth and which required the cold-blooded murder of billions via the activation of the Oblivion device installed on the CNS Shiigeru.
As such, the intent to conduct mass-murder of billions was present on the side of the Caldari State and it was only through the bravery of the service men and women of the Gallente Federation that prevented this act of barbarism and slaughter.
The fact that the State uses the YC110 incidents to justify their treaty violations in the interests of ādefendingā Caldari on Caldari Prime, only to order the deaths of billions of Caldari via Oblivion activation five years later on the orders of the Executor only goes to show that the State never cared about Caldari lives in the first place and that bringing it up is just an act of cynical propaganda aimed at justifying treaty violation, invasion, and murder of Federal citizens.
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You mean to tell us that a Caldari Officer declined to follow an order by a superior officer who would surely be more knowledgeable?
My understanding of Caldari morality as explained by Diana Kim in a different thread, would say that such disobedience is an impossibility. And that even if it was an illegal order, then the correct course of action is to arrest the superior and/or commit sudoku for disobeying.
My worldview is shattered. Shattered I say!
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I have been a card-carrying member of the Solitude Socialist Democratic Party since I was sixteen.
As for my personal politics, I consider myself a dove: I desire only for peace, but I recognize it is only through the Arsenals of Democracy provided by Gallentean patriots like Jacus Roden and the eternal vigilance of our brave military, police, and intelligence service members which remain the only way to truly give peace a chance.
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Democracy was a mistake from the start, and I am happy our ancestors got rid of this stunting growth inconvenience, tossing it away like a shackle that gallenteans tried to attach to our leg. There were literally no violation. Colonies were a private property of Corporations that founded them, and that part didnāt violate the charter. There were NO demands to Corporations because of violation of law or charter. There was a democratic election, that decided we shall give them away. If there was a violation of the treaty we signed, we would just submit to the law, because Honor for Caldari is more valuable than life. But when gallente tried to change the rules, excuse me, we couldnāt stand it.
Iād like to remind, their demands were to give colonies, not to set democratic governments in them. But honestly, setting democratic governments to them could be just equally unacceptable, because democracy means stagnation and inefficiencly. If gallente want this crap for themselves - it is their choice. But we donāt need democracy, and we wonāt allow less successful freaks force their inefficient methods to us, trying to stunt our growth!!
We master our own fate.
We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari.
Being Caldari means being one of us, and it is our prerogative to define who fits this description.
We will not permit you to tell us how to be Caldari.
He was flying a Federal Navy Nyx, wearing Federal Navy uniform under mandate of Federal President with Federal Navy crew. What did I miss? Federal Navy escort? Why the hell do you think I will BELIEVE you that it was not sanctioned by Federal government?
And what now? You āregret loss of lifeā.
You ram our stations with supercarriers and āregret loss of lifeā.
You attack people because of racial differences and āregret loss of lifeā.
You kill protesters against racism and āregret loss of lifeā.
You drop titans on inhabited planets and āregret loss of lifeā.
You genocide colonists with death squads and āregret loss of lifeā.
You shove prisoners of wars into exploding cells, brutally torture and starve them, then āregret loss of lifeā.
Well, dear, I donāt freaking CARE what you regret and what you donāt. I need JUSTICE. I need you to PAY for your crimes. And if we did commit any of crimes, we will pay for them as well.
Actually, I need a bit more than just making you pay for your crimes. Considering constant gallente violation of treaties, I need to render gallente PHYSICALLY UNABLE to commit any further crime against Caldari people.
I repeat for the second time. There was NO murder attempts from CNS Shiigeru, targeted neither at Federal, nor State citizens.
But there WAS murder from the Federal fleet, that downed CNS Shiigeru RIGHT towards the planet, and only by a miracle it didnāt cause a catastrophe of planetary scale, that could kill, significant PERCENTAGE of people on the planet!
Adm. Yanala heroic deed was not ādisobeying orderā, but disarming the vessel to prevent what Gallente tried to did. Admiral Visera Yanala saved people on Caldari Prime from GALLENTE barbarism and slaughter. Unfortunatelyā¦ not of them, because even without armed missiles the titan caused many deaths and brought unprecedented level of destruction. The scar on Kaalakiota mountains with be forever a reminder of Gallente treachery, savagery and disregard to human lives.
I repeat already like whatā¦ third time?
Oblivion was NEVER fired on Caldari Prime.
Racial attacks against people on Caldari Prime is a fact.
Invasion of Caldari Prime in violation of YC110 treaty is a fact.
Downing of CNS Shiigeru on the planet surface by Gallente forces is a fact.
There is NO facts of Caldari murdering people, there are facts of GALLENTE murdering people. When you finally will learn it?
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You commit a suicide when you canāt follow an order.
Adm. Yanala was a honorable officer. She was Caldari and she did what was expected from Caldari. She took the tea.
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