You’re just repeating yourself here, and being insulting again.
Just keep on, maybe you’ll convince yourself one day.
Strawman! Argument from the stone! Argument from ignorance! Appeal to populum! Appeal to antiquity! Velveeta instead of real cheese!
Anderson, I hate to say it, but you just committed every logical fallacy in the intro to speach freshman textbook!
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This thread reminds me, for some reason, of these cogent words from Mark Twain:
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
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There’s many many variations on that one.
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him. ~ Proverbs 26:4 King James Bible
I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it. ~ George Bernard Shaw
If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots ~ Robert Kiyosaki
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Such a simple solution! Except that it will lead to situations where people get stuck inside rocks, ships and stations when they ‘press warp’ to avoid collision detection and then (accidentally or on purpose) stop their ship once inside the collidable.
I got stuck once inside an enemy fortizar, it’s not a pleasant experience. Luckily they destroyed my ship because I don’t think I would have liked self-destructing it.
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Simple, too!
Situation you describe ^
You say: “stop ship”
Client says: “no! you can’t stop right now!” → ship warps
(Your not existing) Problem solved.
I can accept that bumping is a time tested technique to keep your target freighter in place long enough for your ganking fleet to arrive.
It’s just ridiculous that bumpers occasionally take their sweet time doing so. I was bumped on March 23rd in Niarja from around 15:55 to 17:08 before they finally arrived to start shooting. Granted, I was afk for the first 10 minutes. But it wouldn’t have made any difference at all if I had been on. The next hour or so I was trying to figure out if there was anything I could do.
Then there are also those guys who try to profit from the growing desperation by trying to get the freighter pilot into a duel “to be able to web”.
Sure, that’s one of the few risks encountered by a freighter in hisec and there should always be risk, but isn’t there a way to make it less frustrating? I mean a one hour torture session watching your freighter being bumped thousands of km away from its original position without Concord intervention… I find it hard to rationalize in a mostly consistent universe why this kind of action is not sanctioned by Concord.
And no, neither each returning pilot nor every newbro has friends she can call upon any time of the day.
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Welcome first time poster!
Be aware that gankers, pirates and enforcers alike, have lives too. It takes time to get the perfect fleet together. We may even choose NOT to gank you, and just bump you until you surrender.
I hope you gave those guys a GF in local afterwards.
Anyway, I don’t know much about freighters but I do know a bit about traveling in hostile space. Some tips:
Should have prepped before undocking for the trip. Hire a webber escort or use a second account to fly as an escort. Have instawarp bookmarks set up at each gate station along your route. Have a mining permit in your bio (since I assume you were flying through High Sec)
Oh and don’t fly afk.
You know following the Code.
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Hi Xan,
I have been in suicide ganks myself. We were not even in the target system but waiting in a staging area 1 or 2 jumps away. We didn’t take 70 minutes to arrive. And in this instance the fleet was in place the whole time.
It’s humiliating to see your gank fleet flashing red in local and cooling down two times before you bother to attack me. And it feels degrading. Call me a care bear or a snow flake, but I didn’t enjoy that part of the experience.
I can appreciate you guys creating demand and reducing the amassed wealth in game - all I ask for is a little more consideration for your victims.
No need to assume as I wrote I was flying through Niarja. Makes me wonder if you read my post or this is a automated answer.
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Just ignore him, he’s from Code.
Remember: never pay/negotiate with terrorists. Don’t buy permits. They’ll gank you anyway.
If you really feel saver with permit, i’ll lend you mine.
Here, show it to them: Mining Permit
If you can get some friends, let them web you. Even better: wait for the gank to start and let your friends kill the attackers.
There are only three ways to do it:
- The wrong way (pay them and get ganked regardless)
- The right way (put them on you red list. go around/ignore them)
- The Jane-way… (kick their butts)
Maybe it’s finally time to add damage on collision(and consequently get everyone concorded in the process)
Eve need wars and destruction, not safety and boredom.
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The whole point about vision not being the only sense you have at your disposal, is that all the other senses together, can confirm something is a fact, is actually the case, even if we cannot see it.
Your example of the shadow with the shape of a man, for example.
You talk to the “man” behind shadow, and you hear someone talk back, from the exact location where the mouth would be.
You ask the “man” behind the shadow to move his leg up, and you see the shadow correspondingly move its leg.
You ask the “man” behind the shadow to jump, and the shadow jumps.
You ask the “man” behind the shadow to blow on a peice of paper that you leave near, and you see the paper move.
We reach a precipice, a point where the collective evidence confirms this, where we can conclude that we have a man behind the shadow, and we can conclude this to be fact.
Are we absolutely certain? Of course not, and anyone can make an argument as to whether we can be absolutely certain about anything. But for all intents and purposes, its a fact.
What is the distinction between a code and a rule, in your mind?
The reason I ask, is because you mention the “Rule of concord”, in the same paragraph as claiming that bumping is “Against this rule”.
Any new player with any understanding regarding the game, would understand that the “Rule of concord”, actually involves concord, would they not? If Concord does not spawn, or clearly does not take any action against the bumper, how would they possibly conclude that this is against the rule of concord?
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Let’s consider this from something of an RP perspective. I tend to favor game balance over immersion, but it is definitely a balancing act.
To the greatest extent possible, I think Concord should resemble a sentient, rational “police” force. Does Concord ignoring a bump-tackle meet this?
Let’s compare to real life (problematic, I know, but I’m doing it anyways)…
A police officer is sitting in his car, mostly watching for speeders but also keeping an eye on businesses etc. around where he is parked. Then he sees a guy in a hurry bump into a lady on the sidewalk. The guy quickly apologizes, then moves on. The cop probably ignores this.
What happens if the same guy repeatedly bumps into this lady, impeding her movement completely without any end in sight? At this point it has basically become assault. The cop gets out of his car and handles the situation, if he’s deserving of the badge at all.
The OP proposal is horrible, because flagging for a bump is not practical from a game balance perspective. But at the same time, the ability to repeatedly bump a ship trying to warp without any acknowledgement from Concord that this has become a hostile act makes Concord seem not rational at all. Claiming that this is different in kind from using a warp disruptor would be like saying the guy from the RL scenario would be fine repeatedly bumping into the woman if he did it to music and a dance… it’s a distinction without a difference.
I committed my first suicide gank within a couple years of this game’s launch (I used a caracal with old-style overpowered torps loaded in its heavy launchers). Probably some of the best tears I’ve collected in my EVE career. I think suicide ganking is an important part of the fabric of EVE as one of the most prominent forms of non-consensual PvP in high sec. Fixing bump-tackling does not mean the end of suicide ganking. It just means suicide gankers have to step up their game a bit. Ideally it would be matched by expanded mechanics for this type of player interaction in high sec through less contradictory methods.
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Problematic indeed.
See, the thing is, only the biggest, most powerful capital ships are susceptible to bumping. Sure, the beat cop might care if you are blocking the path of an old lady on purpose, but we are taking about a powerful military ship, or at least a massive transport ship owned by a powerful corporation, having some navigation issue. That isn’t something a cop is going to get involved it - that is beyond his pay grade.
But more specifically in terms of this game, I have no issue with the large and super powerful ships whose only weakness is that they are slow and lumbering, being more susceptible to having their navigation interfered with. It even seems a plausible game mechanic to me that all capitals could be allowed into highsec if perma-suspect or somehow otherwise they were excluded from CONCORD protection. I see no reason freighters should have some additional weakness that CONCORD doesn’t automatically protect the pilot from as compared to the other ships to given them a negative trade-off for their immense power.
Back in the day when introducing freighters, CCP was considering limiting their use to pilots in player corps to make them susceptible to wars. In retrospect, that might have been a good idea because as it is, there is precious little trade-off for using the most powerful hauler in the game in highsec. Now, the vast majority of freight is hauled AFK through highsec by silent freighters. Aside the small risk of being bumped, the only thing they are outclassed in is perhaps speed, so I see little reason to make them overshadow the haulers even more by deleting bumping somehow. This ability to delay them somewhat with bumping in order to bring the massive fleet needed to deal with their enormous EHP is something that keeps them in a borderline state of balance.
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How is the fact that several senses can complement them relevant to the idea that you can’t say you sense something when your senses don’t give you a direct information of that thing ?
For all I know, your full post is irrelevant.
So what ? I just don’t get why it is a reason to ask a question that was answered in the post ?
Read my post again.
Lol. That would be a complete retard idea.
Instead of being in NPC, haulers pilots would be in their one-man-corp and change as soon as they are wardecced.
OR they would just stop playing the game as long as the wardec is on. And later on just stop playing the game.
Why not propose that they lose all their assets instead ? Sorry this is the retard proposals of CODE. that make you all look like idiots. You feel entitled to play the game the way you want, even if that means nobody else can enjoy the game.
Talk about carebears …
And BTW when there is a target in null, you connect as fast as you can. You go in your hyperfit sabre to cover those 20jumps . And if you are too late, you are too late, target gone and no bumping can help.
If you can’t kill the target, it escapes, that’s how eve works. HS’ suicide gankers having the time to refit, take a coffee, log 60 alts, is just not a reason for Concord to not protect the target until you are ready.
If you want to prevent the target from warping, you have points. If you don’t want to point the target, there is no reason for it to remain on grid.
Hey, wasn’t my idea, it was articulated by CCP Oveur. But the idea that freighters were going to be group level asset with additional downsides was there from the beginning. I agree, the practicalities are difficult and wars aren’t the greatest source of risk given how toothless they are, but I see no conceptual problem with capital class ships having additional restrictions, trade-offs or vulnerabilities to offset their increased utility.
Bumping is fine. If CCP wants to put in a warp timer, that’s fine too. Highsec pirates will adapt with throw-away suicide scrams the the game will go on as ever. But there is no divine rule that says CONCORD must defend you from every bit of unwanted player interaction in highsec, no matter what ship you are flying. It is perfectly fine that the most powerful ships in the game are not treated exactly the same as weaker ones. Using that as a reason to change things is specious.
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No it’s not. I mean what’s the point in adding those exceptions ?
plus the freighter looks more like the most powerless of the ships. Yeah ehp but that’s all. I prefer to fly a mach, or a golem.
No because people would not feel cheated by the game design.
That’s all there is in those posts : the design that makes concord not react to bumping is stupid, even if your retarded friends claim “there is a hidden agenda”.
For game balance? To make it so freighters aren’t the only hauler worth flying? They purposely were made to be slow to align and alignment was purposely made to be important to enter warp for this reason. It’s fine that they are more susceptible to having their alignment interfered with than smaller, faster haulers with a smaller cargo hold.
So if pirates switched to suicide scrams the crying will stop? I kinda doubt it since people are not really upset about being bumped, but rather what happens after, but then let’s hope that CCP finds the time to put in that warp timer this year.
But it’s not at all a “retarded” design decision. It is just an emergent property of the physics engine and ship parameters. Coding CONCORD to treat bumping as hostile or flag ships suspect would be “retarded” decision. That would be exploited to hell in back by bad people to get people exploded or suspect against their will and gank them without a CONCORD response. The only way to properly address bumping is to with a warp timer or some other change to the mobility of the freighter, not flagging/CONCORDing the bumper.
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