well he references the ahacs having good speed and sig then shows t1 variants with better speed and sig
and what about shield buffer which boosts sig to size of a battlecruiser
its kinda funny you use that link to show roles of ahacs while the link itself shows ships that perform the same role
the only thing ahacs really have going for them is the t2 resists
Is a hybrid of a fox and a cat a pink animal ?
Some will genuinely ask about for curiosity, other will have just had a bad nightmare in which pink lions were licking their feet, people with color blind wonât notice a difference, but since the topic will be derailed we still enjoy the trip, wherever it ends.
fair enough lol
He doesnât show the T1s with better sig because that doesnât happen. The first ship he shows is a Navy Omen, the second a Zealot. Try reading it again. HACs have reduced sig just like AFs. Shield tanking is another story. Youâll still have a smaller sig than any other shield cruiser. HACs specialise, as I noted in a post above, in combat. T1s donât specialise. They are broad-purposed and versatile.
And you say âthe only thing ahacs really have going for them is the t2 resistsâ as if thatâs no big thing. It is a big thing. Itâs a very big thing. Itâs part of what helps define it as a combat ship. If youâve done any degree of PVP, you know how important resists are. If you havenât, then I can understand your confusion here. Itâs also not the only thing they have going for them. They have various other tanking bonuses, as well as damage output bonuses.
I saw you talking about HICs earlier as if they were comparable. Theyâre not. Youâll never get a Phobos to active tank with dual reps the way a Deimos will, and youâll never ever get the same damage output. Youâll never be able to solo a skilled pvp battleship in a Phobos, youâll need help. In a Deimos, you have a solid fighting chance. Thatâs what makes it an assault ship. Itâs combat capabilities and bonuses.
The only points of contention Iâve seen on HACs being combat specialised so far seem to be from people who are ignorant of their bonuses or the value of those bonuses. The resistance profiles of assault frigates and HACS, as well as their reduced sig, is what makes them so hard to kill. The 600-700dps you can get out of a Deimos and the 400dps from an Enyo are not to be scoffed at. Assault ships are not poorly defined at all. Youâre just confused an ill experienced.
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i just looked at the article
he has a navy omen with 68m sig vs zealot with 83m sig
the omen is faster too
he then goes on to say that t3 cruisers are better at the ahac role than dedicated ahacs
the role of ahacs is apparently to orbit an fc according to this article
is this article outdated or something
No, I see what youâre talking about. The Navy Omen is a special exception, and where itâs better than HACs in some departments, itâs not as good in others. For example, itâs substantially less tanky and has about half the dps. Itâs still an exceptionally low sig radius on the Zealot. But youâre right on this point. I thought you were talking about resistances though, which are clearly and markedly better on the Zealot. Speed is irrelevant and not a defining factor of a HAC though, just FYI. Thatâs what youâll get from a HIC.
You have to keep in mind that he singled out specific examples of T1 cruisers that are capable of performing the AHAC role. More specifically, itâs a Navy cruiser at that, not just any old T1. And most cruisers are not, or at least, not to the same extent as a designated T2 HAC. As I pointed out, though, T1 cruisers are more versatile and can perform a variety of roles. The specialisation of a HAC makes it generally superior to a T1 cruiser in a combat role.
And yes, that blog is out of date in some of the technical details, but the message is there.
well hics are for catching and tanking big ships while doing little else
im saying hacs could be for catching and tanking smaller ships in smaller scale warfare which is why i suggested a combat scanning role to go with it
which i admitted might be op
i already addressed a dual rep deimos earlier and thats kinda the wunderkin of hacs in small gangs though cerb can be pretty nice too in a gang
and the adcs which is the new other thing they have going for them hence why i said they are perfect for aggro tackle role
yeah but are they the only ships that can pull high numbers not forgetting they have to be in blaster range to do it
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No, of course not. In their size category though? Yes. Yes they are.
And getting in blaster range is easy. Itâs all about being the predator, not the prey.
EDIT: I will also point out that they are getting this DPS in addition to having dual-rep tanks and high resists. Pack an exile booster in cargo and put on your asklepian set, and these ships are easily the deadliest assault ships in the hands of a skilled pilot.
exactly
a hac is just an upgraded variant of a t1 combat cruiser
it slower and tankier and gets extra combat bonuses
but it doesnt do anything specialised
and i mean we can look at a gila and say it does the same thing as a hac yet its not a hac
its a pirate ship for some reason but its the same as a hac and actually better in many hac roles
No, wrong. It specialises in toe-to-toe combat. I already said that above. Combat is their speciality. Itâs defined by T2 resist profiles, reduced sig radii, tanking and damage bonuses specifically. You can say a Gila can do the same thing, but you can also say a Procurer can do the same thing. It has drones, it can âassaultâ things. Gila is not the same as a HAC at all. It might be âbetterâ in a few circumstances, but you keep bringing up pirate and navy ships as if theyâre the rule of T1 rather than the very expensive exception.
But a Cerberus will swat a Gila down like itâs just another bug tbh. I donât care how good your drone skills are, a Gila isnât getting through a skilled Cerbâs tank. Not before the Cerb gets through yours.
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so a zealot with no drones no tanking bonus large sig and slow speed make it good for brawling style combat
i think your article you linked comes from a time when zealot was used in fleets as a sniper for picking of stealth bombers
at that time it had a great role but it was the only hac that could perform that role
since they are rebalanced it seems certain hacs are good in certain roles while others arent good at much at all
but it seems whether some are good and balanced they still dont have a clearly defined role or position in the meta
theyre just as versatile as t1 combat cruisers but just a bit tankier and dpsier thats all they do
im not saying theyre in a bad place but im saying it would be better if they had a unique identity
idk i think that comes down to fits and playstyles
No tanking bonuses doesnât mean it doesnât get the T2 resist profile, which are extremely valuable in combat. And no, I donât mean âbrawlingâ when I say toe-to-toe, but I can see how it could be interpreted that way. I mean as the frontline unit of a combat fleet. And for the record, itâs still a great sniper ship. Not the kind of ship Iâd fly because I AM a brawler and prefer blasters or autocannons.
I see your point, and I understand where youâre coming from. But youâre wrong, and from where Iâm sitting, it looks like you need more experience in different HACs. The more you fly them, the more you start to understand where they sit in the grand scheme of things, and they are not poorly defined at all. Whether you like it or not, âspecialised for combatâ is a specialisation, and it is a unique identity.
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That could be said of any 1v1, but if I were in a Gila, and I saw a Cerb in my neighbourhood, Iâd reship.
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ok let me ask a question
what hacs can perform roles that cant be performed by t3cs
ignoring the sp loss for a moment which i dont think should exist anyway
and im not asking for deimos vs proteus either
where they both perform quite similar in combat role these days
What interceptors can perform roles that canât be performed by t1 attack frigates?
What exhumers can perform roles that barges canât?
You still continue to miss the point. They are combat specialised. Thatâs all there is to it. T3Cs can be changed to do something specific on the fly. Just because you can change them to perform a similar role to a HAC doesnât mean HACs arenât defined. In fact, by defining the HAC role using a HAC as an example, you know how to fit a T3C to be one.
You also continue to use exceptions rather than rules.
I get what youâre saying. The âidentityâ of some ships is more well defined than others. A black ops battleship can do things that a battleship cannot. But a HAC does things that a cruiser can too. I get it. Iâm hearing you. But the niche that HACs fill is combat specialisation. Just because every other ship in the game can fit a blaster and a tank and shoot at something doesnât mean that the assault role for assault-specific ships isnât defined or isnât needed.
It might not be a flashy identity like a Lamborghini hypercar with 1700 exhaust pipes vs a family sedan, but it is one nonetheless, like a utility truck vs a station wagon. Both can carry a load in the back, but the ute is specialised for it. Sometimes the station wagon actually does it better, but the ute is still specialised for it. Itâs lighter up the back, with a big tray complete with hooks for straps and the like. Sure, I can fit a BBQ in the back of a Volvo, but Iâd rather use a Toyota Hilux because the suspension on the Volvo isnât as tough as the Hilux.
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all of them
idk i dont mine
thats what i wonder tho
is it really needed
you talk as a solo pvper so you should know how easily a rattlesnake will chew through a hac gang
and thats where a lot of my experience lies
and in fw a hac cant even get into most fights especially not solo
idk where you do pvp or how you operate but personally if i was solo in cruiser i would take a recon or stratios or t3 over a hac
First of all, donât talk as if a Rattlesnake chewing through HACs is something special. It chews through most things. Again, rules, not exceptions. For the record, if a Rattlesnake is chewing through a HAC gang, then they are either a really small HAC gang, or a bad HAC gang.
As for fw, I tend to find that most people out there prefer to avoid fights and just farm âpointsâ or whatever. So yeah, I can see why youâd want a cloaky. I look for fights, though. That means I want people to see me. I usually undership so they are more confident in engaging. This means flying something they feel confident they can kill. Iâve had to learn how to maximise every ship I fly doing that in order to win fights like this one for example. So I frequently undership for the occasion. Now, I havenât flown everything. For example, Iâm not very familiar with Amarr HACs, I only know what Iâve read. Iâm most familiar with frigates, and Gallente HACs, and draw my understanding from my experience with them. Iâve soloâd a Barghest, a Nightmare, and an Hyperion in my Deimos.
I think our difference in understanding comes from our difference in experience, to be honest. Most HACs that wander into my lowsec are PVEâers and Iâll only bother going after them if there are no PVPâers looking for a fight, and I can probe/scan them down. As far as I can tell, most people, even many of the PVPâers Iâve killed, donât understand how to HAC, especially solo. Iâve actually brought this up with a few of my friends I fly with as well. We all have HACs and have a massive AHAC + Guardian doctrine for certain circumstances. Also, Ishtar fleets are pretty good for Citadel defence, though I probably wouldnât fly an Ishtar solo.
I do my PVP loud and proud, and personally hold those who need to sneak to get a kill in rather low esteem. Kiters, too, but not quite as low. Too many people looking for easy kills, not enough with the balls for a risky fight these days.
EDIT: I think thatâs the point of the HAC. The fight. Itâs for people that want to fight. Maybe win, maybe lose, who cares? The point is the fight. A good fight is like good sex. If you feel like a smoke and a nap when itâs over, it doesnât matter who was â â â â â â â who, it was a good fight.
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you said i was inexperienced pvper im just saying i pvp a lot in rs and chew through gangs
well i guess it depends on the space you are in
plenty of people looking for fights in fw space especially if youre in t1 frig because you can get into all the sites and youre a tasty target in t1 frig so in personal experience t1 frig gangs are fun in fw anything above t1 frig is limited because it cant access all the sites
yes i agree
we both fly specific types of ships in specific types of space looking for specific fights to pick
like you said you undership for fights but youre not going to undership unless you know what youre fighting
otherwise youre likely to get stomped if you just purposely use a bad ship against an unknown group of hostiles
I think you misunderstand. I fly around in lowsec in frigs, like the navy maulus in that vid, so Iâm already undershipped when something shows up. Iâll reship if I know the outcome of a fight, whether itâs in my favour or theirâs. Iâm most interested in fights with unknown results, not fights that are pre-determined one way or the other. I donât care about winning or losing, I care about the fight.
Anyway, this is a digression now. Iâm sure with my experience youâd see things the way I do but without that, I can only explain how it is. HACs are fine. A few of them could use a buff but not much of one tbh.